GETTING UN'STUCK'

[confusedinpa]

Oh and I have extra doses of "Fukitol" if anyone wants.

Good to read you still have a sense if humor

[Kittyfish]

KF,

Yes you did mention you were getting a D, but I appreciate a woman's POV in all things that deal with "attraction".

I did try to do the same things I had before, but they had no effect. Right now she's not ready to accept anything like that, so I give her space, show her compassion when it's called for and try to go on about my own business. She seems miserable, but that's her choice. I'm trying not to make it mine.

She's always been attractive to me which makes our lack of sex all the more frustrating to me at times. Plus there are the periods that I get insecure and imagine other men hitting on her. That heaped with the comment she made a couple of weeks ago about her not wearing her ring because she doesn't consider us married, really hits below the belt sometimes.

Yes, I was divorced- that marriage lasted 13 years. I've been married for almost four years to my second husband. Things are good.

To me, and this is just me- the not wearing of the wedding ring is symbolic to her- take it off- see I'm not married. I keep coming back to the fact that she's in withdrawal from seeing OM everyday. Is there any way for her to leave that job??

I have daddy issues myself- which I never realized until probably two years ago. My dad lived in another state- my mom had full custody. I saw him rarely- don't get me wrong he didn't forget my birthdays and things like that but it was more of a friend relationship than anything. I think all my life I've been struggling with wanting that "Daddy's girl" relationship. I wanted to be doted on and adored- which I never received from him.

So, I kinda get where she's at. I'm not really attracted to older men like she is though so I don't get that. What I'm attracted to is feeling like daddy's princess. I think my entire life I've strived for this- because words of affirmation are so important to me.

Have you asked her what you could do to make her happier?

[MrBond]

Hi Kittyfish,

You're right about the wedding ring being symbolic to her. It's weird that she's doing that as before she always made sure I had mine on to show I'm married. But then again, this isn't the same woman I married right? ; ) I wish she would give up her job, but it's something she's not willing to do. The guy's supposed to retire in a year or two.

I did ask her what I could do to make her happier and I still get the "nothing" answer. Or I don't want you to fulfill my needs or do anything, I just want out. Kind of like a caged animal. Then I tell her if she's that unhappy, she can leave, but she doesn't. She'll just say "just drop it" and that's that.

That's why it's frustrating because to this day I still don't know of any one reason.

I've been trying the words of affirmation for awhile. Do you have any suggestions as to what you would have wanted to be told? I need ideas in that department so that I don't end up repeating myself. You said you wanted to be treated like a princess. What kind of things did you want to hear? Things that speak to you as a woman.

[Coach]

Yep. She's home. We're sleeping in the same bed with our youngest D between us. Things are casual and light between us, nothing too deep. Her wall is still up and has stated as recently as a couple of weeks ago that she doesn't want to be M any more and doesn't wear her ring because she doesn't consider us M.

I would get your D out of your bed. D used as a shield, it's the marital bed, and it's you "manning up" in a healthy way. I would not be in to big of a hurry and get some of the womens input on this.
Blow off her not wearing the rings - "Your WAW mind tricks won't work on me."

She keeps saying how we're not M anymore, she wants to be alone, she wants to live independently, etc. Yet hasn't made a move towards D or finding legal options, or dealing with kids, etc.

Have you acted as a parent in your M? ie Pay all the bills, handle financial issues, deal with the house, cars etc.

To me, the bomb was caused from us not feeding the R after we had our first child. She spent more time with our D than she did with me which lead to resentment on my part which had me treating her bad/guilty/wanting more intimacy, etc. Which she gained resentment for and didn't want to on, perpetuating an ongoing cycle of resentment between the two of us.

Have you read "No More Mr Nice Guy" ? (NMMNG)

About 3 months ago, she told me it was because of the little resentments she had for me that she held in. When I asked her like what, she told me like me forgetting to take out the garbage sometimes on garbage day.

little resentments:

That I "forced" sex onto her 3 times a week

no emotional connection will make it seemed forced to her - fixable

That I bragged how I could make her climax over 3 times a night

Did you say this in front of any one else besides her? If so it offended her deeply.

That I talked down to her

Not good. Were you now the "bad parent?"

My hobbies of playing video games

Do you understand why this upsets her even if she was asleep?

me forgetting to take out the garbage sometimes on garbage day.

sure AOS isn't one of her LLs?

I had to think long and hard about this one in the beginning and I would say her top one is "Words of Affirmation". So I've been complimenting her here and there without it seeming like I was kissing her @$$. She's got trust issues with people in general and men especially. She has no close friends, just her mom and her sister and her dad walked out on her mom when she was 6 (which probably explains her men issues).

compliment her in front of people, praise her when she does something you appreciate
Regain trust by consistent, loving actions. Strong boundaries for you.
Dad walked out, trust issues - abandoment

Why did she trust you enough to marry you?

Are you taking care of yourself?
Yep better than I had in the past. Working out, playing with kids, started up photography again, etc.

good keep your individual activities. Playing with the kids is powerful, get them rolling and laughing on the floor. Do you have a dog? Puppy? Take pictures of the kids, share them, talk about how beautiful they are, point out what reminds you of her in them.

Are you familiar with "Learned Optimism" ?
No what is that?

People get lethargic when they feel hopeless. "Things will never change, it's always going to be like this so why bother." Google Martin Seligman and "learned optimism" for a primer and the ABC technique. It is a cognitive therapy - emotionally detaching from the outcome.

My W had always been on the quiet side and not opened up for many things in our R and I've been mindreading.

Show her how to open up. Google Imago Dialouge by Harville Hendrix it might give you some ideas. Get very in tune when you listen - look for all the signals and then ask her what she thinks/feels, then ask why - validate, ask is there more, and how can you help - help don't fix.

"Do you have a Rx for Patiencia?"
Yep it keeps getting re-filled. My other friend offered me another prescription to deal with things... "Fukitol"

Stick with the Patiencia for now.

What do you think?

Don't try to fix her and don't tell her what you think the issues are. Stay focused on you. Love your kids and yourself. !180 - Keep doing what you are doing but don't initiate any affection. Make it a goal for her to come to you. Don't withdrawal just don't inititate.
Make yourself irresistable to her - confident, great Dad, in control of yourself, caring but giving her space, earn her respect and just thrive among the strife. Be the best Stuck808 you can for yourself. You can handle it.
Cheers
Coach

[Kittyfish]

Coach knows this stuff better than I do so I'll just weigh in. I agree with what he said about D being in the bed- IMO that's not good for a marriage. Anyone's. I might get slammed for that.

Words of affirmation? My ex told me every day that I was "sexy". Considering he made me feel like a sex object that wasnt't I wanted to hear. Coach had some good ideas.

I had such a dysfunctional background that I overcame. It would have been nice if he would have noticed and commented on it. He didn't until we were separating and then he said "I have never fully given you credit on how great of a mom you are considering you didn't have a good example". Even though we're divorced, I will never forget that.

He could have said something specific he liked about me, ie, I really like it when you____________ (wear that red dress- it makes your eyes light up) etc.

Overhearing you brag on her to someone else can't hurt either.

[Kittyfish]

Adding-

It sounds like she doesn't want to move out for financial reasons?? Could that be it?

This is just me, but if she wanted to stay in the marital home- she'd have to find a new job. Contact with this guy is just bad bad bad.

I feel very strongly she would be willing to start accepting some affection/needs being met from you if she was away from the influence of this OM.

[MrBond]

Thanks Coach for the responses.

"I would get your D out of your bed. D used as a shield, it's the marital bed, and it's you "manning up" in a healthy way."

I've been thinking about how best to do this with our living conditions. I think she's open to it.

"Blow off her not wearing the rings - "Your WAW mind tricks won't work on me."

Nice attitude. I'll remember this. It's like Darth Vader trying to trick Luke Skywalker. You will not change me to the Dark Side WAW!

"Have you acted as a parent in your M? ie Pay all the bills, handle financial issues, deal with the house, cars etc."

Yep, I handle the bills, cook dinner most of the time. We take turns washing dishes and watching the kids, changing diapers, etc.. Cut the grass, etc.

"Have you read "No More Mr Nice Guy" ? (NMMNG)"

Yep, read it after the bomb so that I knew how to better treat her with respect. Although I don't think it was ever that bad, I learned that because of her father leaving her and damaging her trust, me putting in the little digs to her lead her to not trusting me.

"Did you say this in front of any one else besides her? If so it offended her deeply."

This was said in the bedroom between us when we were joking around. She even laughed. This was 17 years ago. Never brought it up again since.

"Not good. Were you now the "bad parent?" "

This I admit was my wrong. I let the resentments get to me and had a "superior" attitude towards her. It changed from me leading her to me being better than her. I've been changing that. I'm always the disciplinarian in the house for the kids. They won't listen to her or she'll threaten them with "you better calm down or I'm going to tell daddy". I told her before to stop using me as a threat and that it needs to be mutual.

"Do you understand why this upsets her even if she was asleep? "

I don't think it was the actual issue of the video games themselves, but what they represented...immaturity. She made a comment when she first left, that she was happy that we were breaking up because then she wouldn't have to go into a toy store anymore for my birthday. Now I never told her to get me games, or whatever, it was her choice. She could have gotten me underwear and I would have been happy. So I think it's the issue of maturity.

Funny thing is that when I talked to my mother-in-law about our problems, she told me one of the things that SHE didn't like about me was the fact that I had games. This was before my W told me that. So it's odd that both of them had the same issues against me. The answer I gave them is that it's just a hobby like playing basketball or cars. It's just something I do. And the fact that I never played when she was awake left me perplexed as to why she said it. So I think it is the maturity issue. I definitely don't act immature. But then again I don't act all serious and too mature. All this coming from a woman who buys things from the Hello Kitty store for herself. I think to a certain degree she was also projecting what she might have seen as a problem in herself.

"sure AOS isn't one of her LLs? "

If it is, I don't know more I could do. Even when she comes home, I try to do things for her that I have no expectations of them being reciprocated. Wash her car, clean the bathroom and the rest of the stuff I mentioned earlier.

"compliment her in front of people, praise her when she does something you appreciateRegain trust by consistent, loving actions. Strong boundaries for you.
Dad walked out, trust issues - abandoment"

Good point. She stays home most of the time so I don't know how I could compliment her with people around, but I'll continue to compliment her privately and do so publicly when the opportunity comes up.

"Why did she trust you enough to marry you?"

I think it was because I was her first and only boyfriend. As a whole I'm pretty empathetic and alot of people come to me for advice because I can see two sides of an argument. It took me awhile to break down her wall initially but after that, she opened up to me more than even her mom and sister. When her boss came along whom she admired like a mentor at first, then trusted, she fell for him like a rock.

"Take pictures of the kids, share them, talk about how beautiful they are, point out what reminds you of her in them."

I do this quite often. In fact I just did this yesterday. She seemed to like it. I've been trying to up the "fun factor" to get her out of her depressed state.

"People get lethargic when they feel hopeless. "Things will never change, it's always going to be like this so why bother." Google Martin Seligman and "learned optimism" for a primer and the ABC technique. It is a cognitive therapy - emotionally detaching from the outcome."

I think that's what my W thinks now. Or it could be that she's afraid of what she's been thinking and doing and just can't process. She hasn't gone to any therapy on her own aside from 2 IC sessions when she was in heat with her boss. She told me that the IC encouraged her to go on with her new life since she finally found what she wanted in life. What garbage.

I'm going to do more reading on learned optimism. Thanks.

"Show her how to open up. Google Imago Dialouge by Harville Hendrix it might give you some ideas. Get very in tune when you listen - look for all the signals and then ask her what she thinks/feels, then ask why - validate, ask is there more, and how can you help - help don't fix."

Will do. I think this would definitely help.

Thanks again for everything Coach. I do feel much more confident though that things will work out.

Let me know if you have any other insights based on my answers above.

Thanks again!

[MrBond]

Kittyfish,

I really don't think that it's the money issue. One of the things she told me was that her mom raised her and her sister as a single parent with very little money, so she can too. Before she would tell me stories about how they were so broke that the three of them would share one pack of dried noodles between them. Money's never been an issue for her.

Take a look at my responses to Coach.

I'm now beginning to wonder too if she's beginning to compare herself to her Mom. She admires her alot and she even dresses similar to her. When I first asked the mom for support, she told me that I should just "let her go" and let her be happy. WTF? How about figuring out why your D was unhappy in the first place. And maybe wonder why your D was fooling around with a married guy who's older than you? Odd family dynamic.

I really wish she didn't have the OM around either. But that's her choice and she's even getting certification now to stay in that area.

What does your current H do to you now that makes you appreciate him? What kind of things does he say to you to turn you on?

I've stopped the "looking sexy" compliments to her so she doesn't feel uncomfortable.

I think rather than me fighting the OM, I need to seriously turn up the outshining him.

[Coach]

180s to contemplate (must be good for you)
- let her start cooking more
- go to bed at the same time as her, have a story to share each night
- pack up the video games

teach the kids how to take pictures, workout, cook

What do you do when you were dating, how did you spend time together? (Besides that you braggart! :/)

I have read what you post to others so I know you get it. I would make some goals so you can have a little affirmation for your efforts.
Cheers

[MrBond]

Coach,

"- let her start cooking more"
She has

"go to bed at the same time as her, have a story to share each night"
Yep I started doing this about 2 months ago.

"pack up the video games"
Did this when we were separated, but brought them out because kids (and believe it or not, my MIL play with them. This from the women who doesn't think they should be played. go figure)

"teach the kids how to take pictures, workout, cook"
Yep I'm doing all this also.

"What do you do when you were dating, how did you spend time together? (Besides that you braggart! :/)"

Hmmmm. We used to go out to eat and just do different things carnivals, zoo, museums, trips, etc. What I've been trying to do is to have us do alot of fun and different family activities now so that they're safe for her and then when slowly do things one on one. I think me taking her to the show a couple of weeks ago was too soon or was bad timing since she was withdrawing at that time.

I'm going to think long and hard about the goals.

I think one of the biggest issues facing alot of DB'ers is that they attract their spouses back to a certain degree, but then they run out of ideas and the sitch just stays stagnant or "stuck". That's what I'm trying to avoid. I have to see things moving in a positive, upward direction. The end goal is that I want to break out of the "friend" mode and back to the M mode.

The biggest thing is that I have to compete against OM. When you were going through your sitch, did you try flirting with Mrs. Coach in subtle ways?