I would like to talk about what seems to my biggest current problem in my relationship struggles - my wife's apparent ambivalence.
This is a very difficult thing for me, and the source of a lot of shame. The basic situation is that although our marriage is in better shape now and things have progressed some for us, my wife is still not having a lot of warm feelings for me. Due to a difficult childhood, I have a hard time dealing with ambivalence and rejection but I am working on this in and out of therapy.
I would like some ideas on how to deal with my bedroom situation, which currently seems like a really evil Catch-22. W does not like it when I back off to "respect" her ambivalence. She takes that as my withdrawing, and it seems to make her feel bad. On the other hand, if I am affectionate at bed time (even in a non-sexual way) she often seems to feel crowded or smothered. It honestly seems like I can't win.
At first it seemed like the most obvious, reasonable conclusion to make was that my W just doesn't want me anymore. I have explored this in and out of therapy. She says she REALLY DOES want to be in this relationship/marriage and that she still "loves" me. She has said that she just "doesn't have a lot of warm feelings for me right now", and that she thinks those will "come naturally with a little more time". Given that we've already been deadlocked for over 5 years in our SSM, the "I just need more time" meme is a little hard to believe.
I am particularly worried about this because she seemed to withdraw into ambivalence almost right when we were married, maybe even a little before. So this ambivalence is a real cornerstone of our marriage. I withdrew too, of course. I started putting myself emotionally back into this R in January, and have really tried to keep myself there. Now I feel a lot of heartache over this, and wish there were some way to make things a little bit better.
I basically am stumped on what to DO in this situation - in terms of behavior. Should I just be affectionate when I want to, graciously accepting rejection when I approach and she doesn't want me to? Should I not always approach, and wait for her to initiate things half the time or so, even if she probably won't? Should I just back off completely for a while and wait some more for her "feelings to return?"
Somehow, I have a hard time accepting that my W is still interested in me given that she shows so little interest. I am having a very hard time believing that some "magic pony" is going to appear real soon now, dispelling the ambivalence.
Is this situation common in SSM? If you have any ideas or comments on how to deal with (or preferably - reduce) ambivalence I'd appreciate hearing them!
ME: 46/W:44 M: 6 years S: 4 Bomb: 1/20/09 SSM 2004-present marital therapy began 2/09 neither of us want divorce.. yet
I would like some ideas on how to deal with my bedroom situation, which currently seems like a really evil Catch-22. W does not like it when I back off to "respect" her ambivalence. She takes that as my withdrawing, and it seems to make her feel bad. On the other hand, if I am affectionate at bed time (even in a non-sexual way) she often seems to feel crowded or smothered. It honestly seems like I can't win.
I have two thoughts here, V.
First, you wife may still be feeling a lot of anger and resentment towards you for the past few years, despite the fact that you've "changed your tune" over the past few months. If the negative feelings are still there in the background, they will combine with any potential positive feelings that she may be having now (over the "new you") to produce...numbness...nothing...ambivilance. In other words, she's not over the hump yet into feeling primarily positive about you, and she may be right that given a little more time (say weeks to months) she'll ccme around. My wife had to walk this path too.
What is she saying in counseling about this? What do the counselors think? What does she say to you in your private R talks?
Second thought. Previously, you wrote:
Originally Posted By: Vigilant1
Like bags, I am currently too much of a Mr. Nice Guy. I have been TOO ACCOMMODATING of her distance and sexual ambivalence. I HAVE NOT pressed my case in the bedroom. And, I am starting to notice that when I do, even now as we're recovering, I do get a response. I have to become more "alpha", and I have to figure out words and deeds to reach her in and out of the bedroom.
Explore this a little bit V. Again, what has been said by your wife, privately or in counseling, or by your counselors about her in this regard? That is, (a) what do you think is the kind of man who would turn her on (if you know)? and (b) can you achieve that in yourself?
Is this a matter of her truly wishing that you would be the "pirate" in the bedroom and stop hestitating, waffling, talking, and being overly-considerate and just grab her and f*ck her, for Pete's sake!? This is a much more common feeling among women than you would imagine, given the current Nice Guy way in which boys are raised into men these days. And modern women feel downright ASHAMED about the fact that deep down, a "pirate in the bedroom" is what the dream about and really get turned on by --> it goes against their feminist upbringings and they don't like to bring it up or talk about it. Which, of course, leaves their Nice Guy husbands completely clueless as to what's wrong.
No, I'm not saying that you should drag your wife upstairs, right now. Do some detective work, V. If she reads, take a serious look at her book choices -- what are the men predominately like in those? Look at her favorite male actors and characters in movies and on television. Look at how her father was and other male role-modeles in her life (the ones she admires and loves). And if you find yourself saying "Well, that just her fantasy. She can't possibly want that in real-life...." think again. She may not want things taken to the extreme represented in her fantasy, but the fantasy is still a clue as to what gets her juices flowing.
In my wife's case, BOTH of the above two items I mentioned were contributing factors to her sexual ambivilance towards me (and are still issues that I grapple with). Don't overlook either of them.
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
I would like some ideas on how to deal with my bedroom situation, which currently seems like a really evil Catch-22. W does not like it when I back off to "respect" her ambivalence. She takes that as my withdrawing, and it seems to make her feel bad. On the other hand, if I am affectionate at bed time (even in a non-sexual way) she often seems to feel crowded or smothered. It honestly seems like I can't win.
I have two thoughts here, V.
First, you wife may still be feeling a lot of anger and resentment towards you for the past few years, despite the fact that you've "changed your tune" over the past few months. If the negative feelings are still there in the background, they will combine with any potential positive feelings that she may be having now (over the "new you") to produce...numbness...nothing...ambivilance. In other words, she's not over the hump yet into feeling primarily positive about you, and she may be right that given a little more time (say weeks to months) she'll ccme around. My wife had to walk this path too.
I think this may be what's happening, it's what Mr. Therapist thinks too. Should I put some kind of time limit on this? Greatly exacerbating the problem is that W is so "busy" and preoccupied with to-do lists. I relieved her of housework, dog-walking, etc. to try to help but she just seems to fill up whatever free time she has with endless busy nonsense.
Originally Posted By: Bagheera
What is she saying in counseling about this? What do the counselors think? What does she say to you in your private R talks?
So far Mr. Therapist has been all about the W. It seems to be all about trying to meet her needs right now, with little to no interest in what I need thus far. On the other hand, last week I sat her down and explained to her how WORRIED I am about our seemingly endless SSM. I told her that I believed that it will be very difficult to turn this around and that one of the things she could do to help is try to say "yes" and participate when the opportunities arise, as recommended by Michele (but I stated this without attribution because she hates that I read therapy books!) To my astonishment, she was basically RECEPTIVE to this, if cranky about it. And, on Monday night she followed through with some actual BEDROOM ACTION (no sex but other stuff). So this avenue is now somewhat open, but I think it won't be for long if I don't use it carefully and lovingly. I'm trying very hard to ensure that I do.
In therapy this week it came out that my bad reactions to rejection are huge problem. For her this is a classic double bind: she feels cornered when I approach, because if she says NO I have in the past become resentful, upset, and unable to sleep. So she has felt like she needs to say YES even if she doesn't want to, just so I will be okay and be able to sleep, and so on. She is a PEACEMAKER and wants everyone be okay, so in the past she has always worked to try to talk me out of feeling bad about being rejected. So every time this happens she ends up feeling manipulated.
Obviously, this just won't do. It's just not good enough, and I had been preparing myself to deal with this very differently anyway, so this week when Therapist brought this up I gave her blanket permission to say NO as she sees fit, along with a promise that I will deal easily/graciously with the feelings of rejection on my own, and not get too bent out of shape about it and try again later.
When writing this down it all sounds so silly. I don't even get why this is such a big deal for me. It must have to do with all of the conditional love and rejection I experienced in my difficult childhood. But it clearly is a big pain in the a$$ for the W to have me acting this way and I am really ready to change this. Coming out of therapy yesterday she was actually GLEEFUL about this "permission to say NO". This is a BIG DEAL, a big part of our problem. I really have to deliver on this.
Originally Posted By: Bagheera
Explore this a little bit V. Again, what has been said by your wife, privately or in counseling, or by your counselors about her in this regard? That is, (a) what do you think is the kind of man who would turn her on (if you know)? and (b) can you achieve that in yourself?
Is this a matter of her truly wishing that you would be the "pirate" in the bedroom and stop hestitating, waffling, talking, and being overly-considerate and just grab her and f*ck her, for Pete's sake!? This is a much more common feeling among women than you would imagine, given the current Nice Guy way in which boys are raised into men these days. And modern women feel downright ASHAMED about the fact that deep down, a "pirate in the bedroom" is what the dream about and really get turned on by --> it goes against their feminist upbringings and they don't like to bring it up or talk about it. Which, of course, leaves their Nice Guy husbands completely clueless as to what's wrong.
No, I'm not saying that you should drag your wife upstairs, right now. Do some detective work, V. If she reads, take a serious look at her book choices -- what are the men predominately like in those? Look at her favorite male actors and characters in movies and on television. Look at how her father was and other male role-modeles in her life (the ones she admires and loves). And if you find yourself saying "Well, that just her fantasy. She can't possibly want that in real-life...." think again. She may not want things taken to the extreme represented in her fantasy, but the fantasy is still a clue as to what gets her juices flowing.
In my wife's case, BOTH of the above two items I mentioned were contributing factors to her sexual ambivilance towards me (and are still issues that I grapple with). Don't overlook either of them.
This is really hard. My W does not really discuss her feelings very much. I have had a really hard time figuring out her likes and dislikes. She really likes romantic comedies - her favorite movie genre - so there must be something going on in there. I think in many ways she would like to be swept off her feet, but she is a stern intellectual type in many ways, with a lot of defenses up. In the infatuation stage I was able to do some of this, but now her emotional defenses seem to be almost impenetrable. I have in no way given up on this, but I am really having a hard time with it. Asking her about "what she needs to feel loved", which I have done now several times, has produced absolutely nothing.
You are right - this will take the right sort of detective work. She reads literature, not romance novels, so there's not too much to go on there. But she does like romantic comedies an awful lot. I will give that angle some more thought.
ME: 46/W:44 M: 6 years S: 4 Bomb: 1/20/09 SSM 2004-present marital therapy began 2/09 neither of us want divorce.. yet
Pretend you are going on a "sex interview". The interviewer is your wife and is who you are applying to have sex with, but pretend for the exercise that she is just a beautiful woman and you want to seduce her.
Now, tell us what you will tell the interviewer to convince her you would give her a good time in bed. You don't have to get graphic about sex acts you will perform or whatever...just tell us "why" she should want to have sex with you. Leave out anything that sounds like "because I love you" or "because I'm a good and faithful husband". Those items are moot.
See what you can come up with. There is a reason I am asking.
Pretend you are going on a "sex interview". The interviewer is your wife and is who you are applying to have sex with, but pretend for the exercise that she is just a beautiful woman and you want to seduce her.
Now, tell us what you will tell the interviewer to convince her you would give her a good time in bed. You don't have to get graphic about sex acts you will perform or whatever...just tell us "why" she should want to have sex with you. Leave out anything that sounds like "because I love you" or "because I'm a good and faithful husband". Those items are moot.
See what you can come up with. There is a reason I am asking.
DQ
Wow - this kind of thing is really hard for me. Let me see what I can do.
1. You'll feel great when I caress you and hold you in my big, strong arms. 2. I would love to try to kiss every inch of your body. 3. You will enjoy my lean, fit body and I will enjoy yours. 4. I care about satisfying you and making you feel good, and would love to rock your world. 5. I want us to feel close and connected as only ML can.
That's what I can come up with right now. Is this what you have in mind?
Last edited by Vigilant1; 06/04/0907:54 PM.
ME: 46/W:44 M: 6 years S: 4 Bomb: 1/20/09 SSM 2004-present marital therapy began 2/09 neither of us want divorce.. yet
The reason I asked you to do this was because, I wanted to see if YOU are ambivalent about YOURSELF. Because if you are, then it will be nearly impossible for you to come up with ANY reason in your "interview". But you did well, you did cite some good things about yourself, you worded it confidently (another plus) and you said a couple of things that are pretty "manly" or suggest it. Good job!
I was just going to point out, if you couldn't do this exercise and showed you are ambivalent about yourself, the question "then why wouldn't SHE also be ambivalent about you, too?"
But you did pretty good so, I'll leave that idea alone.
I think this may be what's happening, it's what Mr. Therapist thinks too. Should I put some kind of time limit on this? Greatly exacerbating the problem is that W is so "busy" and preoccupied with to-do lists. I relieved her of housework, dog-walking, etc. to try to help but she just seems to fill up whatever free time she has with endless busy nonsense.
I would advise you to continue learning all that you can, applying what you have learned, working on YOURSELF, and working to meet her relationship needs for at least a year, and then re-evaluating where you stand. There are no short-term or quick-fixes, especially since your problem began almost from day 1, which means to me that the differences are inherent to both of you, pre-marriage.
Originally Posted By: Vigilant1
So far Mr. Therapist has been all about the W. It seems to be all about trying to meet her needs right now, with little to no interest in what I need thus far.
Give it some time -- he'll get to you. Since men are not generally "relationship oriented," they tend to be less aware of problems and make the bigger and most obvious mistakes when it comes to maintaining an R. Also, men tend to be problem-solvers, so it makes sense for the counselor to start off identifying where the man is falling short and then give him a 'assignment' as soon as possible in the process. It lets YOU become proactive, and lets HER vent and flush out some of her frustration and resentment (setting the stage for her turn to take action).
Originally Posted By: Vigilant1
She really likes romantic comedies - her favorite movie genre - so there must be something going on in there. I think in many ways she would like to be swept off her feet, but she is a stern intellectual type in many ways, with a lot of defenses up....
A note of warning (rant?) about Romantic Comedies, V:
They often tend to perpetuate the myth that women ultimately want a Nice Guy over a Bad Boy. In many such movies, the girl falls for some Bad Boy (*that* bit of chemistry is at least correct), but once he proves himself to be a total jerk, she ends up with the ever-faithful Nice Guy who was waiting for her on the side-lines --> and who might get one manly-moment when he punches, or more frequently humiliates, the Bad Boy at the climax of the movie. This Nice Guy might get the girl in the end, but once the infatuation stage of their relationship is over, their sex life will fall flat: because the sexual chemistry, the sexual *polarity*, between Masculine Man and Feminine Woman just isn't there. The woman will think back fondly to the hot-sex she had with the Bad Boy, but then sigh, and shrug, and figure that that's just how life is with her 'dependable' Nice Guy: he'll just never be able to fire up her engines sexually.
In other words, these movies often pander to women who have made that same choice between Bad Boy and Nice Guy in real life, and tell them that they'll live "happily ever after." In reality, however, unless that Nice Guy wakes up and *finds* his inner Bad Boy and can bring him out in the bedroom, his marriage is doomed in one of three ways: (1) perpetual mediocrity and disappointment, (2) affairs by either spouse, or (3) ultimate divorce when one or the other can't take it any more.
End[rant]
With regard to initiating sex with your wife, let me point you to two old posts of mine that may help:
A note about romantic comedies: They often tend to perpetuate the myth that women ultimately want a Nice Guy over a Bad Boy. In many such movies, the girl falls for some Bad Boy (*that* bit of chemistry is at least correct), but once he proves himself to be a total jerk, she ends up with the ever-faithful Nice Guy who was waiting for her on the side-lines --> and who might get one manly-moment when he punches, or more frequently humiliates, the Bad Boy at the climax of the movie. This Nice Guy might get the girl in the end, but once the infatuation stage of their relationship is over, their sex life will fall flat: because the sexual chemistry, the sexual *polarity*, between Masculine Man and Feminine Woman just isn't there. The woman will think back fondly to the hot-sex she had with the Bad Boy, but then sigh, and shrug, and figure that that's just how life is with her 'dependable' Nice Guy: he'll just never be able to fire up her engines sexually.
In other words, these movies often pander to women who have made that same choice between Bad Boy and Nice Guy in real life, and tell them that they'll live "happily ever after." In reality, however, unless that Nice Guy wakes up and *finds* his inner Bad Boy and can bring him out in the bedroom, his marriage is doomed in one of three ways: (1) perpetual mediocrity and disappointment, (2) affairs by either spouse, or (3) ultimate divorce when one or the other can't take it any more.
End[rant]
Dear Lord, this is exactly, exactly what I have been thinking. Bagheera, what do you think would be the most effective thing I could do to make progress with myself? I am of course willing to read and learn and work hard and I will continue to do that, but would sex therapy or a particular kind of individual counseling, different from what I have now, be the most effective/expedient? Maybe something else?
I have a TON of work to do here. I only hope that I can hold down my job and hold down the fort here at home while I try to do all this...
ME: 46/W:44 M: 6 years S: 4 Bomb: 1/20/09 SSM 2004-present marital therapy began 2/09 neither of us want divorce.. yet
Baggy, your rant about romantic comedies is true, but I think you've missed the point of "why" women love them....
Its about the full on PURSUIT of HER by a man who loves and wants only HER. No one else will do for him. She is his Venus, and he will pursue until he gets her (and hopefully forever after, too). Whether he's the nice guy or the bad boy, its his pursuit of her that makes a romantic movie give her all the "mmmm" feelings.
In nearly every romantic comedy, the hero (whether nice or bad) goes through some kind of challenge in order to win her, or at a minimum, he breaks through a wall of his own - which is very heroic, too (think When Harry Met Sally).
My personal fave romantic comedy - My Big Fat Greek Wedding. Why? Because it didn't follow the standard formula of:
Boy meets girl Boy loses girl Girl meets another boy Boy has to chase off other boy and win girl back
Instead, Wedding goes like this:
Boy meets girl Boy pursues girl Boy wins girl Boy and girl are married and live happily ever after.
And - although the hero in Wedding appears to be somewhat nice, he also shows the capacity to be a bad boy in certain scenes, and more than this, it CLEARLY indicates GREAT passsion between the two of them.
This is what - IMO - women actually want. To be pursued forever by a man who truly loves her, but he's gotta be a MAN, not a nice guy.
Not too helpful to the discussion, but I can't resist jumping in. My favorite romantic comedy is "Moonstruck," but mostly because of the exaggerated Italian-ness of it. Hilarious.
In "Moonstruck," the Nice Guy doesn't win.... The Nice Guy is away at Mamma's deathbed while his "wolf" brother moves in for the kill. Somehow you cheer for it, because the Nice Guy is such a Mamma-boy yutz.
[Loretta announces she's going to marry Johnny Camareri] Cosmo Castorini: I don't like him. Rose: You're not going to marry him, Cosmo. Do you love him, Loretta? Loretta Castorini: No. Rose: Good. [She looks at Cosmo] Rose: When you love them they drive you crazy because they know they can.
[Loretta announces she's going to marry Ronnie Camareri] Rose: Do you love him, Loretta? Loretta Castorini: Aw, ma, I love him awful. Rose: Oh, God, that's too bad.
I also love "Life is Beautiful," which exemplifies (IMO) ideal love and devotion and sacrifice, both romantic and parental.
Vigilant: I think that sex therapy is a very good idea for you and your W!
