Sandi's Place

[Amy M]

Hey there, Sandi!!! Many, many hugs to you!!! I don't come here anymore, but, I think about you daily, and you and your family continue to be in my prayers!

Things in my life are pretty good. All of our papers are with the judge. Since it's uncontested, we don't have to appear in court. So, I should be officially single sometime in June. Certainly not the path I would have chosen for my life, but, that's okay.

I'm staying busy, and having adventures! I've gotten my scuba stuff out again and committed to finishing those lessons this summer. I also may take motorcycle riding lessons after that. I've got another run scheduled in September in CA. A friend and I are planning a big vacation for my 40th b'day next year. It's all stuff I wouldn't have done if I was still married!

I've found a divorce recovery class, but, to be honest, I'm not sure I need it. The first night I left thinking that I was way better adjusted than everyone else in the room! Maybe that's the message God intended me to get from the class. I'll keep going...I'm hoping to make some new friends there.

I do still talk to a few of the folks from my DB time regularly. They help me...I hope I help them.

My stbxh is living with ow. The boys go there every other weekend. I struggle with that. He's involved my children in his affair. I'll spend the rest of my days having to teach the boys that it was wrong. I worry about how to do that without saying ugly things about them. So, for now, I don't do much about it! A friend of mine who came from a family like mine has turned out to be assured me there's time when they are older...that they'll know it was wrong without me having to do much talking. I pray that's the case!

Work is better than it was, and it's summer which in Pensacola means lots of fun to be had! The boys and I are going to really make the most of the summer!

At any rate, I'm just letting you know that I'm okay...and I appreciate all you did to help me get here...to the okay place!!

Much love to you!!!
Amy

[sandi2]

OH AMY! MY SWEET AMY! Thank you so much for contacting me. I cried and I laughed while reading your post. Sweetie pie, you don't need any divorce recovery classes! In fact, you could probably "teach" some of them. Anyway, I am so happy that you are out there living life. I knew in my heart that you would.......I just knew.

I know it hurts so badly to see your babies over at the OW's. I think I may have told you that the stitch that broke my D and her first M up was an affair. Her H got another woman pregnant. Our D was pregnant at the time she left him. It was so hard those years our grandson was growing up......I wanted to scream at him what his dad had done, but your friend is right honey.......in time. Our GS thought his dad was the greatest thing and tried all his growing up years to be "approved" by his dad, but he was never as good as the his dad's "other" kids. I wanted him to have a good R with his dad, but it was so hard knowing what our SIL had done to our D and our GS not knowing the truth. It was not my place to tell him and our D wouldn't. But, in time the truth has a way of coming to the surface. Now, our GS does not have much to do with his D b/c he was never "approved" or accepted like the other kids.....and b/c he figured out for himself what kind of person his dad was. Our GS is grown and his dad doesn't understand what went wrong. (Duh!) BTW, his dad is D again and living with another girl.

Anyway, I know that you living what is right......will teach the boys all they need to know. It is not so much in what you "say" to them, but just living "right" before them is what matters.

I love you girl! I miss you, but I am so happy that you are in the place you are. You will continue to get stronger and this time next year......I want you to come tell me about that birthday party!!

Love,
Sandi

[MrBond]

Hi Sandi,

Thanks for responding and for the 2x4. Yes even though I walked in without having expectations, I let her silence get to me.

Since then, on Monday night everything was fine and happy, then on Tuesday night, I noticed that she once again started to withdraw and that she had put our girls to bed without saying "goodnight" to me which is what she normally does. That wouldn't have bothered me, but I then started thinking back that she hadn't done it in awhile which I thought was rude. So I told her the following morning that she was acting rude in doing so and that evening she was all fine like nothing was wrong again.

Well, get this. For some reason I felt the urge to google her OM's name on Wednesday. Lo and behold, evidently someone else who works with them asked for a background check on this guy to see if he was really a Navy Seal. Turns out he wasn't. What a fraud! A couple of months ago she accused me of doing something online to ruin this guy's rep which I didn't do. So I told her about it that night so that she wouldn't start accusing me of more stuff and that I was worried about what kind of psycho she works with and fell in love with. She thanked me and went to bed.

I followed her in and told her how she was acting very short tempered and talking down to me, which she said she didn't know she was doing. So then it spun into a R talk and her saying that she didn't want to be M anymore. I asked her why again and she said she just didn't love me. I asked her again how did she get to that point and she said she just didn't love me. Then I brought up how after our first daughter was born she told me that she could see herself as a single mom. I told her at that time we should have realized there was something wrong, but she said that that is when she should have left. AT that time I asked her why she said that and she told me she didn't know.

I don't know where she gets this running away issue. Where when there's a problem she just leaves. I asked her about the ring and she told me that she doesn't wear it because she doesn't consider us married. WTF? She's home, carrying on like nothing is wrong and doesn't consider us M? She also said she could see herself living like roommates without sex. I told her she's gotta be kidding and that she hasn't thought of me in the slightest. She said she just wants to be independent and live on her own.

I told her that it was impossible since she had the girls and besides, she always had the option to do whatever she wanted to do, buy whatever she wanted, etc. Plus she's living in the house she wanted and purchased together with me. Everything she has been doing was her being "independent". She doesn't even share her thoughts with me anyway. She then said that she did not want me to fulfill her needs and wants, etc. Funny when I didn't even know what those were.

I then told her how her mood swings have been affecting our Ds. How she's much shorter to them and scolds them much more than she ever had. Like the other night, my 6 y.o. daughter had accidentally gotten a few sugar crystals on my W's sleeve and my W's face just dropped and got angry and when my D apologized, my W wouldn't even acknowledge which made my D feel terrible.

So after that wonderful conversation, I decided to really start working on myself. So over the weekend, I went to church and started working out. I was cordial and nice to my W and we spent all weekend together with the girls. Then Monday rolls around and she's back to her distant self.

I know I get a 2x4 for that last conversation. It must be the sexual frustration! : )

I just don't understand how anyone can be so detached living under the same roof and not want to work on anything and stay miserable. I did tell her that I thought she was going through a MLC and that if she wanted to make the most of it, she should build on what she had and not tear down everything. And that if she did so then she wouldn't have a house, our kids wouldn't be able to go to private school, etc. I was on a roll.

What do you think sandi? Do you think she's hanging around because she's confused, or do you think she's of the mindset to live like roommates or leave? When I'm around her, should I act as if we are still a M couple? Or give her space like a roommate? She's signed us up for a couple of outings as a family and I get the feeling that if I asked her out to lunch alone, she'd accept.

Even though I brought up the issue of her depression, I don't think she's going to do anything about it. Oh one thing I did say to her Sunday night before she went to bed, is that if we hadn't gotten married like she keeps saying was a mistake, we wouldn't have had our oldest D. And if she had left when she made the single parent remark, we wouldn't have had our beautiful second D. She seemed to have thought about that for a bit.

Don't worry about the scoldings. I really appreciate them. That's how I learn after all.

[sandi2]

Dear Stuck, I sure hate that you are having to continually go thought this mess, but as you can tell by other postings......it is not a "new" thing that has just been invented. I wished I had been informed about MLC/WAW before I had my ordeal b/c I did not understand what was happening to me. Even though you may have tried to tell your wife.....I don't think she "gets it". For one thing, she doesn't want to. She is so fogged out that she is not herself and you can't talk to her rationally like you used to talk to your "wife". Actually to put it bluntly, I think you have to treat her as if she is NOT your wife! You see, that is where the "rub" comes into play. You expect her to still act, talk, think, and love as your wife did. At this point in time.....she is not that person. You would have right to grieve b/c in some ways you feel that you have lost her. Hopefully, one day she will resurface, but for now she is lost. Stuck, I can honestly tell you this from my heart b/c I have been there. The WW I was back then was NOT WHO I REALLY AM. I look back at the things I did, said, thought, etc. and I am so ashamed and embarrased. It is as if I was in a state of insanity! So, with the idea of you treating her as if she was not your wife.......let's look at this last post. (And before you say that you can't do that.....just bear with me, okay?)

I noticed that she once again started to withdraw and that she had put our girls to bed without saying "goodnight" to me which is what she normally does.

By "what she normally does", are you referring to her putting the girls to bed or without saying goodnight? Let's pretend she is not your wife and she is just another person who shares your home and the responsibility of the work and raising the girls. How would you feel if that person did not make a point to say "goodnight"? If you still feel that it is rude, then I would say to call her hand on it.....just like you did. However, if you were agitatied b/c it was your "wife" who did not say goodnight, then you do not need to say anything about it and let it run off your back. Don't allow those actions to control you.

Well, get this. For some reason I felt the urge to google her OM's name on Wednesday.

Stuck, if anyone understands temptation.....I do. However, you know by now that this line of thinking is going to only lead to something negative for "you". Even though you proved a point about him, you gained no ground in her eyes......even if she thanked you for telling her what you did. You won no brownie points with her. See what I mean? If you had handled it as if she was any other person living in your home, would you have snooped? No....(and I can hear you saying, "But she's my wife", which is exactly the point I'm making.)

I followed her in and told her how she was acting very short tempered and talking down to me, which she said she didn't know she was doing.

I do not blame you for standing up to her and calling her hand on her not treating you with respect. This is where it gets really complicated. Not treating her as if she is your wife, but yet you are the father of her children and you expect to be treated with respect. But also.....wouldn't you expect for any other person living in your home to treat you with respect? So, I have to go back to the original idea of you treating her as if she was not your wife. Tough....huh?

So then it spun into a R talk and her saying that she didn't want to be M anymore.

It usually does. That is why we tell LBS to stay away from serious talks if at all possible. Next time, try to stop it in its tracks once you make a point of the "respect" issue and do not allow it to go any farther. Hold up your hand in the stop signal and say that is all you want to say at this time. She cannot get into a R talk with you unless you follow along. It's a trap!

I asked her why again and she said she just didn't love me. I asked her again how did she get to that point and she said she just didn't love me.

Do you see yourself using the word "again" in this quote? That means you two have been over this territory before. No use in covering it again b/c you won't get any farther the second time around. I know that it comes natural to want to do that.....but it never works! The reason she only says that she doesn't love you is b/c she doesn't know the true answers herself, and she is basing it on her emotions at this time, which are all false chemicals flooding her brain!

Then I brought up how after our first daughter was born she told me that she could see herself as a single mom. I told her at that time we should have realized there was something wrong, but she said that that is when she should have left. AT that time I asked her why she said that and she told me she didn't know.

Now sweetie, I don't think you realize this, but you were putting pressure on her when you brought the babies into the picture. My H used to do me that way and it is laying a guilt trip on the WW. Not a good thing to do. Again, you are not winning any brownie points. I just want you to be careful not to do this in the future, okay? Also, it sounded like she must have had post-partum depression after having the babies. I have learned that it can last much longer than people use to realize.

I don't know where she gets this running away issue. Where when there's a problem she just leaves.

Go back and read Michelle's article here on the board about the WAW. This is a perfect picture of how she feels. I remember feeling like I just wanted to take off running and never look back. Yes, it gets that bad! She can't deal with reality and she is wanting the fantasy.

I asked her about the ring and she told me that she doesn't wear it because she doesn't consider us married. WTF? She's home, carrying on like nothing is wrong and doesn't consider us M?

As Puppy Dog would say, this is all script. I think every LBH who has asked his WAW why she has stopped wearing her wedding rings has received the exact answer word for word. She is telling you the truth in how she is feeling right now.......she doesn't want to consider the two of you as M. Actually, she is saying she does not want to "feel" M or to be seen as a M woman. It goes back to having that desire to be single that she never got completely rid of when the kids were born. (I know this is making you sick, but I have to be honest and tell it like it is.)

She also said she could see herself living like roommates without sex. I told her she's gotta be kidding and that she hasn't thought of me in the slightest

My H and I said the same thing to each other! At the time, I thought I would never be able to be intimate with him again. Even though we may not have the hot sex life that some do......at least I feel the love in my heart and know we are okay now. We are loving towards each other--and not like "roommates", either!

Everything she has been doing was her being "independent". She doesn't even share her thoughts with me anyway. She then said that she did not want me to fulfill her needs and wants, etc. Funny when I didn't even know what those were.

What you call her being independent and making choices, etc. is not the same as what she sees as being completely independent of "you"! That is what she means. Yes, I felt the very same way! In fact, I would not allow my H to see me undressed b/c I was being "faithful" to my OM (in my own mind). How "sick" is that?? It was my little game that I played so that it endorsed my "emotional divorcement" from my H. And....of course, we were not sharing the same bedroom, so I thought I was being "true" to my OM. It really makes me want to throw-up when I put all of this into words, but I hope it shows you the insane, mixed-up, emotional mess a WAW is in. You almost have to treat her as if she is a mentally ill person. I may get stones thrown at me for saying that, but I can look back at myself and think I must have been nuts! I did not want my H to fulfill my needs! I thought I had given him decades to do that and he had failed, so now it was time for the OM to do it. She is thinking that it is too late and that you "can't" do the job and futher more, she doesn't "want" you to be the one to fulfill her needs.

She said she just wants to be independent and live on her own.

Nobody in my family had any idea how badly I wanted to be away from all of them and live in another town where nobody knew me and be totally independent. That alone--would tell all that personally know me that I was not my true self at that time.

I just don't understand how anyone can be so detached living under the same roof and not want to work on anything and stay miserable.

I know you can't understand, sweetie. I don't know if I have ever met a LBS that could "understand". You see, you are trying to make sense of it all, and it can't be done. It is like a new & strange disease that can't be explained.......it just has to be dealt with the best you can. You don't have to like it or understand it, and you can either choose to deal with it or pretend it doesn't exsist......but it will still be there. What matters is "how" you choose to deal with it.....what road you take in how you handle everything in hopes that one day......all will be well.

As far as thinking she wants to stay under the same roof and not work on the R and stay miserable?........she is not really "thinking" that herself! She is in a fantasy world. She is dreaming of how her life "will be" in the future and just bidding her time. She sees herself as a lady in waiting....for OM. Enough to cause chest pains, isn't it?

When I'm around her, should I act as if we are still a M couple? Or give her space like a roommate?

Stuck, I'm going to tell you this.......and I am not taking credit for the D bust b/c it was more people than just me talking to this young man and besides he did a lot of very hard work on himself. A young man by the name of Steve came on the board with a WAW. She had a couple of A's and involved in another one (if I remember correctly). She was pregnant and Steve did not even know if it was his baby or not. Things looked very grim. I talked to him as if he were my own son and got pretty hard on him and used several 2x4's. In fact, I was not as nice as I've been to you.....lol. Anyway, I told him he could go a couple of different directions and he chose to stick it out and work like the devil on himself and be "best friends" with his WAW who was still living under the same roof. They were not even sharing the same bedroom at the time he first came on board. She was on a roller coaster ride just like your W. She was hot and cold......up and down. At times he thought he would not be able to take much more but he would hang in one more day. To make a long story short......before the baby was born, they were sleeping together and making love. She had stopped all PA's and was trying to break off the EA. The baby was born and looked just like Steve and he chose not to have a DNA. He wanted to be the daddy to the baby and chose to do that. The last I heard, everything was great! I could not have been more proud if I had been his Mamma. The reason I told you about Steve is b/c I wanted you to know that IT IS POSSIBLE. Some men say that there is no way that they could act as if they were "just" best friends with their W. Had you prefer the alternative.....which would be a D? That IS what the alternative would be, you know, b/c this other way you try to fall back on.....does not and will not work.

She's signed us up for a couple of outings as a family and I get the feeling that if I asked her out to lunch alone, she'd accept.

Okay, but treat it like you would a good friend.....or better yet.....a causual friend or co-worker. That way, the personal feeling/emotions does not get caught in the "trap" like it usually does. You must keep that "mind-set" of being a friend only and DO NOT think of her as your wife. Sounds impossible? Steve thought so, but he decided he would give it his very best shot in order to save a R with his W. It was that or lose her forever. In the end.....it worked. Not an easy task, but possible. I could tell you of another story where I worked with the wife of a WAH. He was having an open A with OW and the wife continued to act as his best friend and it finally drew him back to her. But the key is to always ask yourself how you would deal with a "friend" in a particular situation. Just like with the "good-night" stuff. How or what would you expect for a friend to do before turning in for the night and would you have confronted a friend about it? I'm not saying what you should have or have not done, but I'm saying that you have to decide how you deal with a friend in these things.

Ask her out for a causual dinner......but do not make it one ounce romantic or you will "kill" it. You would not be romantic with a co-worker, causual friend, or even a best friend. You will constantly have to remind yourself that this is a "friends only" R. It will be very difficult. However, I believe under the circumstances of the R with OM, etc., that this would be your best route. You can come every day if you need to in order to walk it through together.

Don't bring up about how things had been if you two had not married or how good it has been, etc. That does not help. It makes matters worse.

This has been an extremely long post, but you are worth it! I want to help in any way that I can. I truly believe your M can make it or I would tell you to forget her.

Take care and I'll check on you later.

Sandi

[MrBond]

Thanks sandi for everything. Many of the things you've metioned, I've thought of myself, but sometimes we need someone else to really drive the thought home.

Today I met my W and our Ds at the dentist for the girls' appointment. While we were waiting for them in the waiting room, we were just reading magazines when I saw something interesting, I'd point it out to her. She'd make a comment about it and then go back to not saying anything.

While we were sitting there, I couldn't help but keep glancing at her and wondering what she was thinking. She was just sitting there not saying a word. Based on what you asked about how I would treat a friend, I would actually have had a conversation with them. Kind of hard when it's one sided though. So I just left things quiet.

Before we used to call each other at work to see how the other was doing and she's stopped that. I've been doing it every now and then, but should I stop it as well? I don't want to seem needy to her.

When we left, she was polite and friendly, then left. It's odd how the LBS tend to put every action that the WAS does under a microscope.

I do appreciate you walking this journey with me and hope (scratch that) KNOW that my W will come out of it a better and more loving person. I look forward to being the next Steve. : )

[Thinker]

Thanks Sandi,

This last post of yours helped me too!

Hi Stuck, sounds like you and I are spending a lot of time in the same place.

Thinker

[sandi2]

Hi Thinker. I am still stuggling getting over the flu and can't seem to get around to everyone in one "sitting" like I use to, but I'm glad you dropped by. What I said to Stuck is what I would tell any LBH who stands a very good chance in drawing his W back to him by way of "friendship".

The rest of this post will be for you and Stuck and anybody else that might take a look-see.

Based on what you asked about how I would treat a friend, I would actually have had a conversation with them. Kind of hard when it's one sided though. So I just left things quiet.

You handled that perfectly, Stuck. When the two of you are out in public, especially, is to treat her with respect, politeness, friendliness, etc., and if she doesn't return any forthcoming attempts at making conversation, then that is what you should do.....just leave it alone. Be sure not to give the impression that you are sulled b/c that is a huge turn-off. One of your hardest jobs will be to act "as if" you are the guy with the friendly personlity when all you want to do, at times, is scream, yell, cry, give up, and many other emotions before you begin to see the results on a daily basis like you are hoping. If you stay consistant, you will start to see glimmers from time to time, and then it will start lasting longer periods of time. But remember that she will be going through her own personal "hell" and that alone will require more patient from you.

Before we used to call each other at work to see how the other was doing and she's stopped that. I've been doing it every now and then, but should I stop it as well? I don't want to seem needy to her.

Yes, I strongly suggest that you wait for her to initiate calls and emails. If you call, I would make sure it was something more than "just seeing how your day was going"......unless there has been something to happen that you know might cause her a difficult day on her job. Again, like you would do for a friend. If she speaks in a cross manner and doesn't appreciate it, then you will know to back away and not do it anymore......until much later down the road. It is almost like you would do a "guy" friend. I say that to help you get the idea of the romance and sex out of the scope of things and try to see it from the POV. Very difficult for a LBH who is in a SSM. It is those times that you have to keep you eye on the goal.

Stuck, I believe what you have to be able to pull this off and if it takes a turn for the worse and I don't see her making progress from what you post to us.....I will tell you up front that it is time to move on. You know I have done that with a few folks. I don't like to, but I will if I think they would stand a better chance at dropping the rope and moving forward with their life.

The biggest hang-up that LBH's get is that they are afraid to detach b/c they are afraid of "losing" the W. However, you could not get much closer (emotionally) than you are at this point, so think of it as a strategic plan of action to turn this R around. But instead of charging into battle, you must take baby-steps one day at a time and that goes completely against the male nature. Fighting that male nature to pursue her will be your biggest enemy, so you will have to watch out for it.

Speaking of goals, maybe you could think of some short term goals for yourself and the kids. Don't say that you are going to get your wife to kiss you by the end of the month.....or something like that. First of all.....that is very unrealistic and second of all, it is about her.....and you can't make goals for "her".....only yourself and what you want to do with the kids. Since summer is upon us and the kids are out of school in most places......it might open some opportunities for fun times. The idea is to center it around the kids (family) but make it all about "fun" and keeping everything light and relaxed. Unlike trying so hard like the night you took her to the dinner and the movie and you were trying so hard to make light conversation.....you soon ran out b/c she wasn't joining in. Don't let that get you all up-tight. Remind youself that she can smell fear and you need to relax. When you once truly relax and the home attmosphere is relaxed......there will be a greater chance in her reaching the place where she will start to feel relaxed in your presence. That is the frist goal to try to reach (IMHO) is to do your best to keep the home front a "relaxed" attmosphere so the kids and your roommate will relax......b/c once that happens.....it will take a lot of pressure off of you. I can tell you are exhausted, Stuck. You need rest. So, my suggestion is to consentrate on trying to get as much rest as you can this week and give her that space she wants. If she choses not to say good-night, mark it off as bad manners on her part and don't deal with it this week. You don't need to get into another R talk with her for sure! Maybe something simple, yet fun for the kids.....like swimming, for example, could be planned for the weekend. If you have a pool at the house, maybe the kids could have one of their friends over. It just takes one more kid for them to have a ball. The next weeks ahead I think your main focus is on relaxing. That means you will have to work at not "watching her" and wondering what she is thinking, etc. You'll get obsessed if you continue doing that, and it's not healthy.

If she wants to hide out in her room or whatever, then pour your attention on the kids. Take then for ice cream and tell her she is welcome to tag along if she wants......and if she doesn't.....don't let any disappointment show in your face or voice and tell her, "okay, see ya later". A person does not have to over-kill with the cheesy smiles and act like a idiot while trying to maintain a PMA. I think that is what has freaked some WW's is when they see their H's suddenly acting really strange. That is b/c the H is over-killing the acting "as if" part.

Well, it's been a long day for me and I need to get some rest myself. I am encourage and hope you will be also. Remember, it is like you said.......the OM is not the one here.......You are!! You have all the advantages. But let me warn you Stuck......it will not come about in a short time. If you won't give up and if something in the EA doesn't go farther.....then she will finally begin to let go of her fantasy by the hardest. She won't want to do it and will hang on for dear life. It takes quite a man, IMO, to be able to do what you are doing.

Have a good night and I'll talk to you later.

Sandi

[sandi2]

Hi Thinker. I am still stuggling getting over the flu and can't seem to get around to everyone in one "sitting" like I use to, but I'm glad you dropped by. What I said to Stuck is what I would tell any LBH who stands a very good chance in drawing his W back to him by way of "friendship".

The rest of this post will be for you and Stuck and anybody else that might take a look-see.

Based on what you asked about how I would treat a friend, I would actually have had a conversation with them. Kind of hard when it's one sided though. So I just left things quiet.

You handled that perfectly, Stuck. When the two of you are out in public, especially, is to treat her with respect, politeness, friendliness, etc., and if she doesn't return any forthcoming attempts at making conversation, then that is what you should do.....just leave it alone. Be sure not to give the impression that you are sulled b/c that is a huge turn-off. Plus, she needs to see that her mood swings are not going to control how you behave through-out the day. I believe that is a big factor, right there, for them to learn their emotions doesn't keep you from enjoying life. She may have thought you would lay down and die when you found out about OM and she said she did not love you.......but you are showing her that Stuck is going to enjoy his life and his kids with or without her beside him.

One of your hardest jobs will be to act "as if" you are the guy with the friendly personlity when all you want to do, at times, is scream, yell, cry, give up, and many other emotions before you begin to see the results on a daily basis like you are hoping. If you stay consistant, you will start to see glimmers from time to time, and then it will start lasting longer periods of time. But remember that she will be going through her own personal "hell" and that alone will require more patient from you.

Before we used to call each other at work to see how the other was doing and she's stopped that. I've been doing it every now and then, but should I stop it as well? I don't want to seem needy to her.

Yes, I strongly suggest that you wait for her to initiate calls and emails. If you call, I would make sure it was something more than "just seeing how your day was going"......unless there has been something to happen that you know might cause her a difficult day on her job. Again, like you would do for a friend. If she speaks in a cross manner and doesn't appreciate it, then you will know to back away and not do it anymore......until much later down the road. It is almost better to think in terms of a "guy" friend and how you would interact with him. I say that to help you get the idea of the romance and sex out of the scope of things and try to see it from that POV. Very difficult for a LBH who is in a SSM. It is those times that you have to keep you eye on the goal.

Stuck, I believe what you have to be able to pull this off and if it takes a turn for the worse and I don't see her making progress from what you post to us.....I will tell you up front that it is time to move on. You know I have done that with a few folks. I don't like to, but I will if I think they would stand a better chance at dropping the rope and moving forward with their life.

The biggest hang-up that LBH's get is that they are afraid to detach b/c they are afraid of "losing" the W. However, you could not get much closer (emotionally) than you are at this point, so think of it as a strategic plan of action to turn this R around. But instead of charging into battle, you must take baby-steps one day at a time and that goes completely against the male nature. Fighting that male nature to pursue her will be your biggest enemy, so you will have to watch out for it. The other enemy is getting sucked into R talks. Just don't go there if at all possible!

Speaking of goals, maybe you could think of some short term goals for yourself and the kids. Don't say that you are going to get your wife to kiss you by the end of the month.....or something like that. First of all.....that is very unrealistic and second of all, it is about her.....and you can't make goals for "her".....only yourself and what you want to do with the kids. Since summer is upon us and the kids are out of school in most places......it might open some opportunities for fun times. The idea is to center it around the kids (family) but make it all about "fun" and keeping everything light and relaxed. Unlike trying so hard like the night you took her to the dinner and the movie and you were trying to make light conversation.....you soon ran out b/c she wasn't joining in. Don't let that get you all up-tight. Remind youself that she can smell fear and you need to relax. When you once truly relax and the home attmosphere is relaxed......there will be a greater chance in her reaching the place where she will start to feel relaxed in your presence. When she does not feel that you are going to try to make a move on her, then she will truly start thinking of you as a friend. That is the frist goal to try to reach (IMHO) is to do your best to keep the home front a "relaxed" attmosphere so the kids and your roommate will relax......b/c once that happens.....it will take a lot of pressure off of you.

I can tell you are exhausted, Stuck. You need rest. So, my suggestion is to consentrate on trying to get as much rest as you can this week and give her that space she wants. If she choses not to say good-night, mark it off as bad manners on her part and don't deal with it again this week. You don't need to get into another R talk with her for sure! This weekend......maybe something simple, yet fun for the kids.....like swimming, for example. If you have a pool at the house, maybe the kids could have one of their friends over. It just takes one more kid for them to have a ball. The next weeks ahead I think your main focus is on relaxing. That means you will have to work at not "watching her" and wondering what she is thinking, etc. You'll get obsessed if you continue doing that, and it's not healthy.

If she wants to hide out in her room or whatever, then pour your attention on the kids. Take then for ice cream and tell her she is welcome to tag along if she wants......and if she doesn't.....don't let any disappointment show in your face or voice and tell her, "okay, see ya later". A person does not have to over-kill with the cheesy smiles and act like a idiot while trying to maintain a PMA. I think that is what has freaked some WW's is when they see their H's suddenly acting really strange. That is b/c the H is over-killing the acting "as if" part.

Well, it's been a long day for me and I need to get some rest myself. I am encourage and hope you will be also. Remember, it is like you said.......the OM is not the one here.......You are!! You have all the advantages. But let me warn you Stuck......it will not come about in a short time. If you won't give up and if something in the EA doesn't go farther.....then she will finally begin to let go of her fantasy by the hardest. She won't want to do it and will hang on for dear life. It takes quite a man, IMO, to be able to do what you are doing.

Have a good night and I'll talk to you later.

Sandi

[Can it work]

Hi Sandi

I've just found this thread of yours and have to admit that I'm very impressed with the advice you've been giving Stuck. I can see a lot of my own sitch in his and find comfort in your advice.

I don't know if you've kept up with my thread recently but in general I feel like I've now come up against a barrier. I think the initial discomfort and animosity has gone. We no longer discuss the R in any way at all. My W seems to be very comfortable with her life in her new house with our son. I get him over to stay every Tuesday and Wednesday night and every other weekend.

I think I'm succedding fairly well in my efforts to GAL. I have many great friends around me and have taken up a multitude of hobbies. I mountain bike with friends as often as I can now and I've taken up running. I never used to be able to run at all last year but am now in training for my first half-marathon in August.

In a nutshell, my own life is going fine but I still find myself desperate to get my M back on track. Do you see it being any different from Stuck's sitch bearing in mind that my W and I no longer live together or are the principles the same?

A week on Sunday is my W's birthday which happens to be Father's day too. It's my W's weekend with our son but I was toying with the idea of taking them both to lunch to celebrate both occasions. I'm very weary of having it look as though I'm pursuing but I just feel I'm not really getting the chance to communicate with my W at all any more since the only time we talk is in the 5 minutes or so it takes to pick up/drop off our son.

After my sessions with my DB coach I know that I should be working on a friendship with her but because of the lack of contact I am finding this difficult.

As far as I'm aware there is still no OM on the scene.

Any advice you can offer me would be most appreciated.

Kev

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Hope you get to feeling better, Sandi!!

Oops -- I'd better sign this off here . . . I don't want my post to get too long, lol!!

Hugs & Nuzzles,

Puppy