Over the Shock and GALing 4

[LG nm12]

Hi Thinker,

You have a choice with regard to what kind of marriage you want. Your W has a choice with regard to what kind of marriage she wants. Each of you need to decide what you want, communicate it to each other, and then make your decisions on how to work forward accordingly.

Though you are carefully navigating how you handle things *right now* (avoiding pressure, rebuilding trust, knowing yourself and holding onto yourself within your M...,) it is important that you know what you ultimately want with your W, that you find the right time and the right way to communicate it with her, and that you learn what she wishes.

You can try to temper your desire for her, but it will require inauthentic, self-protective behaviors to do so. IMHO.

Another thought... You have been quite respectful of your W's resistance to anything that resembles pressure from you. I worry that you have given too much power to this, and that perhaps too many ideas or actions are being safely dumped into the "pressure" bin. Could you be in a state of paralysis or stagnation because you're working so hard to avoid pressuring her? I am not assuming this. I am merely asking the question to probe for any validity.

I do not think that standing up for yourself and stating clearly what you wish for in your M with your W is "pressure." No matter what has happened, you are her H and the father of her kids. You have a right to your desire and to your dreams.

To me, this: "Things between my W and I are quiet, friendly, and carefully detached. I get up before her and work out. We chat a bit as we get the kids out the door in the morning - friendly. We go our separate ways during the day. We eat dinner together in the evenings after the kids are in bed - friendly chat about the day. After dinner we go to our separate offices. I have been going to bed first and falling asleep right away." sounds empty and disconnected and sad. Somebody's got to break through the wall or this could be your scenario until you die.

Timing is important, of course. I understand that you are still working to win her back.

Just a few random thoughts...

Lucky

[Thinker]

Hi Lucky,

You have a choice with regard to what kind of marriage you want. Your W has a choice with regard to what kind of marriage she wants. Each of you need to decide what you want, communicate it to each other, and then make your decisions on how to work forward accordingly.


Though you are carefully navigating how you handle things *right now* (avoiding pressure, rebuilding trust, knowing yourself and holding onto yourself within your M...,) it is important that you know what you ultimately want with your W, that you find the right time and the right way to communicate it with her, and that you learn what she wishes.

We have discussed this to an extent - and surprisingly enough I think that those things coincide. We are both looking for trust and a deep connection. We are both looking for a sexual relationship - we are pretty well matched there. We are both family oriented and like the same sort of activities and adventures.

However: My W is clear in her statements that she wants these things, but that she does not want them with me.
In the discussions she confirmed my belief that she cut herself off from me emotionally about 2 years ago, and since then has been focused on building a separate life for herself - and cutting me out.

A good example was in a discussion we had regarding intimacy and really getting to know someone - your spouse. She stated "I want that too, I really do! But I don't think I can be that person for you. I can't let myself be open again with you! I can't open myself to that pain!

So I don't see this (right now) as a SSM situation, but rather a classic WAW.

You can try to temper your desire for her, but it will require inauthentic, self-protective behaviors to do so. IMHO.

Yes, completely true.

Another thought... You have been quite respectful of your W's resistance to anything that resembles pressure from you.

yes, although I have also relapsed and done a number of things which are clear pressure.

I worry that you have given too much power to this, and that perhaps too many ideas or actions are being safely dumped into the "pressure" bin. Could you be in a state of paralysis or stagnation because you're working so hard to avoid pressuring her? I am not assuming this. I am merely asking the question to probe for any validity.

I have indeed given up all power in the area of sex. If she wants to have sex, she initiates and I respond. When I initiate, she responds VERY negatively, leaving me with a choice of backing off (which I do) or forcing sex on an unwilling partner (which I will not do). The only way that I can think of to break this is for me to also set and enforce an equal "no-sex" boundary - in effect to lock the door equally from both sides.

So far, I have not done this, but the one sided initiation / control only on her side situation has been driving me crazy enough that I have been seriously considering it.

I do not think that standing up for yourself and stating clearly what you wish for in your M with your W is "pressure." No matter what has happened, you are her H and the father of her kids. You have a right to your desire and to your dreams.

We had this discussion last week. I initiated and she rebuffed me with tears and the "I told you I don't want this, you aren't listening to me. I said I don't want pressure to have sex." speech.

After a bit, I responded to her that "I am listening to you and I do understand you, I just can't do what you want me to and remain who I am. I am a sexual person and I am attracted to you sexually. I can not be in a close relationship with you and pretend to be neutered and uninterested. I can not work with ground rules that read "We have sex if W is interested, but H is not otherwise allowed to even indicated interest""

I finished by saying that if I was interested, then I would initiate. She was going to have to live with my sexual interest, but was always free to say no. She should never feel forced. For my that case, I was going to have deal better with her rejections.

She said she understood.

Since then, I have not initiated anything, but it has only been a few days - and honestly, I haven't been in the mood myself.

To me, this: "Things between my W and I are quiet, friendly, and carefully detached. I get up before her and work out. We chat a bit as we get the kids out the door in the morning - friendly. We go our separate ways during the day. We eat dinner together in the evenings after the kids are in bed - friendly chat about the day. After dinner we go to our separate offices. I have been going to bed first and falling asleep right away." sounds empty and disconnected and sad.

It is, it absolutely is. If it were to be long term it would be a slow death.

I talked to my C about it today, and he asked if I would be willing to live with an R like this, and after some thought I had to answer "No". However, what is the best way forward? My W knows what I want (Passion, intimacy, discussion, romance, sex) and says she wants the same thing, but can not be that way with me. So what is the best way forward

1) give space, work on myself, be a friend and pray for patience in the hope that she will decide to take risk and let herself open up to me again

or

2) Stand up, be the alpha male, and try to break through the wall.

Somebody's got to break through the wall or this could be your scenario until you die.

Timing is important, of course. I understand that you are still working to win her back.

Right you are! I don't think she is ready for me to break down her wall right now. I think it may well be interpreted as an attack on her

The advice here on the boards and in the various books is completely conflicted, but I think that has to do with timing. To stop a WAW from running you have to back off and be a patient friend, but to get the romance rekindled, you have to break through the wall.

But when does the first stop and the second begin?

[MrBond]

Hi Thinker.

Read your response on sandi's post. Yep you and I are definitely in the same boat. Have you tried lightly (very lightly) flirting with your W? Kind of just the playful flirting and not the "I want you in the bedroom now" kind of flirting.

My W's got low self-esteem so I was thinking of trying that next since we already are on a bit more stable ground. Just to plant the seeds of a R in her head.

[Thinker]

I've tried flirting, but have not found where my W's boundary is (for me) between what she interprets as unacceptable pressure and what is just light fun.

I have to admit that I have also never developed a talent for the sort of light, "so ambiguous that it would be acceptable in an office or with a friends wife" style of flirting that this would take.

But...

Joking with her about the "Exotic Bikini Wax" that we saw on a spa treatment menu ("are you going to sign up for that one...")is OK and gets a smile.

Saying "Wow! you look really HOT tonight tonight" as she heads out the door is not OK and gets a distressed look of unhappiness.

[MrBond]

I get the same thing. I think we married twins separated at birth. I think I'm going to experiment a little and get a mental temperature gage of what's acceptable and not.

I'm going to try and strengthen the friendship with her without her realizing it and quietly see if I can fill in the gaps that the other man did for her.

Either way we're both in for a long haul.

[aliveandkicking]

Ok. I can't speak for your wives but I was just like that with the sex. The ONLY thing that sparked my interest (and I mean I thought I was frigid, felt nauseous having sex with H), the only thing was him differentiating from me and taking some decisive action to change our sitch. Unfortunately, that action was him leaving and I hate the way he did it. But, something had to give. Someone's at my door. More in a minute.

[aliveandkicking]

So, my point is that I think while being friendly etc, really developing your own self and being decisive can be very helpful. I suppose that is a no-brainer but I think you really emanating that shift in focus and detachment from her sexually can make a big difference. I don't feel like I'm articulating this well.

It was not H leaving that turned me on, it was him taking the responsibility for his happiness off of me. That's it.

[Thinker]

really emanating that shift in focus and detachment from her sexually can make a big difference.

This is where we are having difficulty. Sexual detachment in a monogamous R is equivalent to showing no interest in sex at all. Since we are not going to go outside of the M, It really would have to mean faking disinterest in both our W and in sex in general.

it was him taking the responsibility for his happiness off of me. That's it.

That I get!

[Thinker]

Pondering on our kids...

S6 has been very moody recently, and S4 just started wetting his bed again - almost every night.

I am wondering if it is because they are reacting to the tension between W and me. We try to keep it away from them, but they have almost certainly picked up on it.

In that case, should we talk to them about it? - "Your Mommy and I love you both very much. We also love each other, but are having trouble getting along...it's not your fault"

I am almost positive my W would balk at that - it would be putting a lot of pressure on her to formally involve the kids that way.

But still, what is best for them? We aren't getting divorced (yet) so there is no reason to formally tell them...

[SmileysPerson]

Thinker you've got me thinking. We're so much alike in many ways. What is different here?

It seems to me perhaps I am taking (can take?) much more pleasure from the sexual-ambiguity-thing WAW and I seem to have going. The pure flirtation, just like in the Olden Days.

In my Wayward Youth, during college, I was a bartender. There were two ways to enhance one's end-of-night take (at least two legal ways, though some folks went the other way) -- one, help some guy obviously on his first or second date get his girl loopy ("and if I might suggest for the lady a triple Long Island Iced Tea?" -- no, never that blatant) and two, flirt like a banshee with the unaccompanied ladies, especially the ones who'd formed the Circle of Power (AKA, Fortress of Estrogen) -- that gathering a group of women will do in a bar to keep prowling Wolf-Men from the door -- because this would (a) set them up as desirable women while simultaneously (b) giving them a man to focus their attentions on should an Icky Guy start hitting on them, because, as everyone knows, chicks dig bartenders.

So I'm looking at WAW in many respects as just a target for my Power Flirtation. But -- importantly for me, though possibly not for you (and, it that's the case, understandably and admirably so) -- I'm also no longer looking at her as the ONLY target for my Power Flirtation.

I've MIRV'd my lust, if you will.