OK, I'm gonna spell it out, very directly. You will probably get mad at me again.
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
I have so NOT lorded [her affair] over her it's not even funny
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
In short, I am treating her as Jesus Himself would treat her if He were standing right here: "I'm here for you, but you have to turn away from this path [the affair] you are on."
Lording it over someone is to behave as if you are better than someone else, right? The quote I dredged up is pretty much a textbook example of "lording it over someone", both literally and figuratively. You are not Jesus, she is not a sinner you need to save. You're her H and she's your W. If this is how you feel about her, along with all the other descriptions I don't want to type again, then I guarantee you: SHE KNOWS IT. And what's more: she knows it's neither love, nor Christlike. Sorry if that's harsh, but that's how I see it.
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
My family has been nothing but kind and forgiving to her
Originally Posted By: Puppy's Bro
I thought of your loss of good health, my loss of you and of our loss of this time together, and I was still grateful for our situation as compared to [Puppy's]. We may not have celebrated our love to the full extend our numbered days would have encouraged, but we almost always knew it had and would sustain us - even through our difficulties. I knew you loved me, and knew you saw our marriage vows as sacred. I might get angry or frustrated, and/or know you were feeling the same, but I knew you would never betray our bond. I also know you were able to count on me in this same way.
I appreciate that your B loves his W, and I'll bet the rest of the book IS amazing and touching. But here love is masquerading as moral superiority. This was a direct zing to your W, along with the overt suggestion that "our M is better than your M".
I have a similar family, Puppy. Although mostly they are wonderful, I grew up with a certain amount of judgement and moral superiority. I've seen it in them and I've seen it in myself, and it had no small part in the breakdown of my marriage.
It is in the shelter of each other that people live.--Irish proverb
What was the context of my quote? What was it I was saying she needed to turn away from? If it was adultery, then I'm not going to apologize for that -- she DID need to turn away from that. Why do you seem to skip over the "I'm here for you" part?
I have a feeling your own background clouds your judgment on this.
Time, sometimes the time just slips away And your left with yesterday Left with the memories I, I'll always think of you and smile And be happy for the time I had you with me Though we go our separate ways I won't forget so don't forget The memories we made
Please remember, please remember I was there for you And you were there for me Please remember, our time together The time was yours and mine And we were wild and free Please remember, please remember me
Goodbye, there's just no sadder word to say And it's sad to walk away With just the memories Who's to know what might have been We'll leave behind a life and time We'll never know again
Please remember, please remember I was there for you And you were there for me And remember, please remember me
Please remember, please remember I was there for you And you were there for me Please remember, our time together The time was yours and mine And we were wild and free And remember, please remember me
And how we laugh and how we smile And how this world was yours and mine And how no dream was out of reach I stood by you, you stood by me We took each day and made it shine We wrote our names across the sky We ride so fast, we ride so free And I had you and you had me
If it was adultery, then I'm not going to apologize for that -- she DID need to turn away from that.
I'm not asking you to apologize, I'm trying to get you to consider that the negative ways you think about your W might have an effect on your M, and even her behavior.
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Why do you seem to skip over the "I'm here for you" part?
I'm not, it just loses sincerity in the context of the rest of the quote.
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
I have a feeling your own background clouds your judgment on this.
Everyone's background clouds everything for them, doesn't it? I was telling you that to let you know that I'm just calling it like I see it.
Puppy, I think you're great. I think you have put a TON of effort into saving your M, I think you love your W, and my heart goes out to you so much cause I see you hurting.
You owe it to yourself to not leave any stone unturned right now, especially in your own heart and head. Put it all to music and you just might get some kind of landmark album out of the whole deal.
(((Puppy)))
It is in the shelter of each other that people live.--Irish proverb
Not sure IC can 'change' a person. It can only happen IF they realize they have a certain problem and humbly ask for help overcoming it and the C is very competent, most are not. Same is true for MC except it is even more difficult with 2 people involved. Seems to me that IC and MC could make the M worse or at most no better unless the client(s) has the proper mindset going in to it. If for example you go into MC pointing fingers at the spouse there's not much hope of it working. If your W actually has NPD and she does not believe it the IC would most likely not change her one iota. Please understand this is just IMHO after I've read a lot here and elsewhere and insisted on IC and MC myself and been appalled at the outcome - others may have a different experience or opinion but seems to me that IC is no magic bullet. I've seen people here go thru' extensive IC and MC and then end up filing for D against their spouse because they started and ended with their fingers pointing at their spouse. And without 100% commitment by BOTH marriages are doomed to failure.
If it was adultery, then I'm not going to apologize for that -- she DID need to turn away from that.
I'm not asking you to apologize, I'm trying to get you to consider that the negative ways you think about your W might have an effect on your M, and even her behavior.
But that's not really what you're saying here. You're specifically saying that my telling my wife that I was here for her, but she needed to stop doing what she was doing, was "lording her affair over her," and that I was contradicting myself.
THAT was your point, and I dispute that.
I also dispute that my family has somehow not been forgiving and accepting of her just because of what my brother wrote in his book. Remember, this has been going on for two years since we reconciled, and the book just came out and she just learned of that paragraph THIS WEEK.
I do, however, concede that the PERCEPTION in my wife's mind is that I'm somehow morally superior, that she can't "measure up," and that my family will never accept her. And since it's true what they say that "Perception is Reality," those are, in fact, things that I have to deal with in trying to hold this marriage together.
In that vein, I asked her last week if it would help her to know that I also struggle with things, and that I have my own "issues." She immediately said "Yes!" and so I confessed something to her that I kinda told her about before, but it was years ago and I watered it down. I look at too much porn, and I told her that I feel that it may have specifically stopped me from being the sexual aggressor and being playful and fighting thru her "oh no, not now"s and might have played into the poor sexual dynamic that we've had. She thanked me for telling her.
Not sure IC can 'change' a person. It can only happen IF they realize they have a certain problem and humbly ask for help overcoming it and the C is very competent, most are not.
Of course. I think you have to have those elements, the willingness to change and work on yourself, and a good IC helps with that. Mrs. Puppy has said she's willing to work on herself, and if her IC isn't helping, I'm sure she could find another. I've been to about 5 MC and IC now, and I would say at least one of them was not good. The other 4 were good: ranging from excellent to ok. And sometimes they can be good, but maybe you don't have a personality fit. My H is seeing a military type guy (he says) and I'm seeing a more motherly, nurturing type and we both feel comfortable with them. Karen
I do, however, concede that the PERCEPTION in my wife's mind is that I'm somehow morally superior, that she can't "measure up," and that my family will never accept her. And since it's true what they say that "Perception is Reality," those are, in fact, things that I have to deal with in trying to hold this marriage together.
In that vein, I asked her last week if it would help her to know that I also struggle with things, and that I have my own "issues." She immediately said "Yes!" and so I confessed something to her that I kinda told her about before, but it was years ago and I watered it down. I look at too much porn, and I told her that I feel that it may have specifically stopped me from being the sexual aggressor and being playful and fighting thru her "oh no, not now"s and might have played into the poor sexual dynamic that we've had. She thanked me for telling her.
Puppy
From my perspective (and I have thought this before) the problem is not what you TOLD her. With words. If (even in your mind) during her affair, you were the Lord Jesus Christ Himself and she was the the wayward prostitute .... she knew damned well that you felt that way.
And you know what? She had a right to be mad about that. Not that your attitude in any way justified her choices, of course not. But to the degree that you were vibing "here I am on my Good Christian Pedestal, but I will deign to stoop to pick you up" .... did some damage there, my friend. 'Cause you're a good man, but Christ you ain't. No offense, because we're all subject to self-righteousness. There's a *reason* Christ talked about the Pharisee and the tax collector praying in the temple.
What I underlined above tends to make me think I'm right. She needs to know that you are equal players in this relationship. Not in a sense of "Ok, let's compare lists of how we both screwed up." More in a sense of "Let's not forget we're both flawed (if you like, "sinful") humans in this together." A "good spouse/bad spouse" dynamic .... well, I just don't believe you can build anything healthy on that foundation.
The fact that according to you, you just NOW shared with her something you struggle(d) with/feel badly about .... (shakes head)
I know you know this. But sometimes I get the feeling that you believe that as long as you don't SAY anything overtly to her that demonstrates an attitude, she can't tell you have said attitude. I suspect differently.
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
I've shared lots of my faults with her over the years. Porn. Financial mistakes. Poutiness/"F-this-ness." Moodiness. Lack of leadership in my family.
I've spoken them to her many, many more times than she's ever shared her faults with me, and I've asked her for forgiveness for them.
I've also complimented her on HER good qualities, oh, I'd say 100x more often than she's complimented me on mine. I have tried to build her up -- most likely, to a fault. I've enabled some of her worst qualities (and she has enabled some of mine).
All I can do is share my faults. I can't help it if her decision two years ago makes her feel ashamed. That's simply the consequences for the poor choice she made, and there's not a whole lot I can do about that now.
