"Time for no contact, strict no contact. Take care of your kids and excel at being a single parent but keep your contact with her to a bare minimum and kick start your own personal development into high gear - that's where it starts.
No one is going to give you equal & fair treatment, you need to learn that you have to demand equal & fair treatment from everyone including your wife."
I have found so many wise and true statements here on this board...and this is another example of that.
"Always go straight forward, and if you meet the devil, cut him in two and go between the pieces." - William Sturgis, clipper ship captain, 1830's.
I don't necessarily disagree with how YOU are perceiving your own motivations, but my point is this: I doubt that's how SHE is perceiving it.She probably perceived your caving on the issue as weakness, and it strengthened her even more. Fairly or unfairly.
Puppy
Amen brother, Amen!
Although we take this cruel & mean treatment to be something personal, if you look at it from another point of view, a scientific one if you look at the science in this area, she is actively seeking out a more suitable mate with more masculine traits because the current mate she has doesn't exhibit those behaviors. She has been able to challenge you and push past all your boundaries to the point where she can't respect you because she can't trust you to be strong and if she can't trust you to be strong, she can't be secure around you. Her constant cruel treatment of you is her continuously challenging you, testing you and validating her actions because her tests are all positive, this man is a push over, I need someone stronger.
We take it personally, I know I did, millions of other men I'm sure take it personally too. But if you look at it from another perspective instead of using your own built-in failure prone logic, and once you start learning more about this and why it happens so often, there is a pattern that emerges. Once you realize this and change your behaviors and responses to her actions towards you, you change the outcome, you change her beliefs, which makes her question what she is doing and that's when the balance of power shifts back to you whereas currently it resides with her.
It feels personal and on many levels it is, but it really isn't personal, it's a survival mechanism built into women that has been around for 10s of thousands of years or more and it's in full gear. Probably showed up when human being began to walk on 2 legs instead of crawling around on 4, something to do with women having children, holding them while traveling which meant they didn't have free arms to hold supplies or weapons to defend themselves, hence the need for pair bonding & monogamous relationships with strong males but the survival mechanism didn't just get phased out when we all became "civilized" (whatever that means), it's still there, it's still in place and it's still active regardless if people want to believe in this or not.
Enough of the science lesson because I could talk on that topic for ages. Sexual polarity and lost attraction is at the heart of almost every marital issue on this site.
What do you need to do? Push back, start challenging her, start making her work harder, start smiling more, start being incredibly confident, arrogant if you have to, cocky, start having a plan with your life. Start looking better, start enjoying life, be a great parent, be a better parent than she could ever be and I'll say it.... start dating. Instill a fear of loss in her. You were once a man who exhibited attractive behaviors & traits, enough of which to attract your wife. You stopped exhibiting those behaviors. Since you were able to do this once, you can do it again with other women. I'm not asking you to hump every women that you meet & date either but go out, date other women, enjoy it, experience the boost in confidence & self-esteem and realize how great a person you are without her. Don't advertise that you are doing this, your wife will find out on her own, advertising this would make you look foolish - we don't want that. Even though it's easy for her to let you go, there is a flipside to this situation, with the power struggle in her balance, you actually appear to be her "property" (in her perspective), so while she can let you go so that she can enjoy the single life, she won't tolerate you being with other women. While she is preparing for the great new single life, she needs you to be depressed, sad and unable to function - this validates the decision to leave you in her head. When you do the opposite and live a great exciting life, it throws the decision making process in her head for a huge tumble - she can't rationalize her decisions anymore because they aren't based on data that's congruent with her new actions.
When she challenges you, imagine yourself to be a strong brick wall and up to this point, she has been able to punch huge holes in you the brick wall and you have crumbled each time. Challenge her current ideas & assumptions of you: show her that the brick wall has been rebuilt and won't crumble under her pressure.
You don't have to be a prick or an a$$hole to her, but you don't need to be a supplicating wuss either.
You have given your power to her, time to take it back.
I know some of you are mad; maybe I made the wrong decision.
I don't think it's that anyone is "mad," Orangedog, it's just that we want to see you have the BEST chance for SUCCESS. We just try to help others avoid the stupid pitfalls that we made, and when I see that someone (Robx) PREDICTED this would happen, and I see that EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO POSTED suggested that you NOT move out, it makes me wonder why you started a thread about the subject, if you were just going to do what you wanted to do anyway.
Puppy
I am almost 2 years into my separation and I find that this has been an incredibly long time to spend in this condition, this limbo.
I wish someone had spoken to me and gave me a kick in the ass on day 1 after my wife dropped the "bomb".
You can either be a wise person and learn from someone else's mistakes so that you don't have to go through the same process or you can be the kind of person that has to make the same mistakes that alot of other people before you have made and learn the hard way and in doing so lose alot of time, money, resources and endure alot of pain - and maybe that is our fate, to make the mistakes even though so many around us have already done so, maybe we don't want to learn the easy way, we want to learn the hard way, maybe learning the hard way is the true path for you to challenge your mind & body into new growth, to adapt to your new circumstances & environment.
For what it's worth, looking back, I think I would have at least like to have tried the easy way first before doing this all the hard way.
"Time for no contact, strict no contact. Take care of your kids and excel at being a single parent but keep your contact with her to a bare minimum and kick start your own personal development into high gear - that's where it starts.
No one is going to give you equal & fair treatment, you need to learn that you have to demand equal & fair treatment from everyone including your wife."
I have found so many wise and true statements here on this board...and this is another example of that.
- thanks bro, I appreciate quality feedback like that!
Custody 50/50 3-on/ 3-off, Alternate Saturdays. Every other month switch the 3-on days so we get different days of the week.
Child Support - Straight out of the state online calculator - she pays me (but not much).
She also owes a slightly higher portion of the ch 13 (some of them are her loans) and will pay it.
She makes a higher salary (not a huge diff but significant).
Yes, she is a lawyer (not family/divorce) but I don't play that game with her. I have my own L review everything - and she knows this. If she sends me the slightest thing looking legal I run it by him. She was complaining that "I didn't trust her" and I simply said, "Sorry, (OrangeDog) don't do law. If you send it to me, I simply turn around and send it to him." It diffuses everything.
We were talking today and I asked her:
"What do you plan to get out of all of this?" I want to be happier.
"How will that happen?" I couldn't be happy with you around.
"Why separation instead of divorce?" Time to make sure it's the right move. She said she doesn't want to live in no-mans land forever and I agreed.
"Have you ever thought about what got us to this point?" She struggled. "I try to fix people too much" "You made me angry because you weren't doing things right"
"How do you know you're not going to do this again?" She didn't have good answers. She says sometimes she thinks about who she might be compatible with.
"But do you really think about who you were, who I was, and who we became, and how this happened? Because I do and I feel it's really given me insight." She said some stuff about how she sees me reading all the time and she just isn't into the whole "self-help" thing. She didn't know what my "plan" was with all this. I told her there wasn't any "plan" to get her back. I read because I've got stuff I'm working on (ADD, Dysthymia, and now relationship) in conjunction with talk therapy and meds. I got in a bad sitch and I don't want it to happen again with her or anyone else. I wanted to learn more about ADD, intimacy (referring to the Schnarch "Passionate Marriage" on the counter yesterday), and job negotiation.
(referring to Schnarch again) "Well it's too bad you weren't reading that stuff two or three years ago. In fact I bought you a book or two (a how-to title and "Mating in Captivity")."
"Yes, they were good titles, I read them, and thought carefully, but at that time I really failed to see the problem was outside the bedroom. It was an impossible sitch; you were angry, I 'couldn't do anything right'. It killed any feelings of intimacy and that's why it didn't happen often."
"Well it (intimacy) was important to me" "It was important to me too. And still is. There's nothing wrong with me (additional talk on plumbing, drive, and orientation). Once I stepped back in our relationship I figured that out and things came to life. I want to be in a good sitch with someone where those things can happen."
"Well maybe you'll find someone."
"Exactly"
I said a few things about how I'd been "squashed" by her bitterness, and constant "can't do anything right" attitude. That it carried over into every area of our life; work, home, kids, and bedroom. Now that I'd stepped back a little I could see it. I felt I was functioning better without her sh**. She admitted I was happier. I told her indeed I felt much better, not because I want a divorce but because I finally stepped back and felt equal, not squashed. I told her I would NEVER let that happen in a relationship again, not with her or anyone else.
(ADD'ers often get in these sitches. We end up with strong organizers but end up crushed by them. They become angry and resentful. "Driven to Distraction" Hallowell)
She said she was trying to quit "fixing" not only me in other areas of her life too. I told her "good, you need to quit living everyone else's life just worry about yourself for a while. Specifically I don't want you to help me. I need the independence at my own place and need to work on my thing." (some mention about job and I told her to leave me alone on that too. I reminded her this year I got a new title, a raise, and supervised more people)
About that time I got a call from woman friend for a little moving day support so our conversation ended. (W knew who it was from).
Woman friend reminded me, "You're doing a lot of things in your life to make things better, and no matter what happens, reconcilation or nasty divorce, you will be a better person. I don't think she gets it yet but you have a place you're going. Keep moving. When the sh** starts fallin' apart in her life with the house, bossy BFF, and other stuff, then maybe she'll see it" Thanks woman friend.
robx, puppy, I'll keep you filled in. Smiley, open a new thread.
Last edited by orangedog; 05/24/0903:41 AM.
"My actions are my only true belongings. I cannot escape the consequences of my actions. My actions are the ground upon which I stand." Thich Nhat Hanh
Yes, I saw the double standard on Fb immediately. She was so angry about it at first.
I've also considered the polarity thing much lately. I will consider dating. I'm certainly better at noticing flirting lately (and I told W this). W knows about relation with woman-friend, who really is just a friend. (W keeps mentioning pics of woman-friend in athletic stuff/bikini on boards).
I've been paying a lot of attention to clothes, appearance (always have but now much more).
House stuff. I do nice things for her (help her with her bags, make her coffee) but I'm not compelled to do endless chores or kid issues.
No contact will be good.
Last edited by orangedog; 05/24/0904:03 AM.
"My actions are my only true belongings. I cannot escape the consequences of my actions. My actions are the ground upon which I stand." Thich Nhat Hanh
call from good friend. "We're meeting up tomorrow at two."
Message from other good friend. . "Time heals all wounds. You will end up far ahead eventually. (name) and I think... No, we know, you are a great guy and you will be fine"
from woman friend - "I almost died a few years ago and I approach each day fresh and new. Maybe they don't understand but you need to live it for yourself every day.
"My actions are my only true belongings. I cannot escape the consequences of my actions. My actions are the ground upon which I stand." Thich Nhat Hanh
I know some of you are mad; maybe I made the wrong decision.
Toss that sh*t in the trash bin, man! No one here knows if you made the wrong decision, and everyone will acknowledge that. Maybe even YOU don't know if you made the wrong decision yet.
But you made it. So execute. Make the best of it. Make better than the best of it.
Old Ben Franklin said that the worst vice is ADvice. So I'll talk about me. Because I'm good at that
I'm open to "dating" other women while I'm separated. WAW called the tune -- "we're on our own now." Okay, fine. @robx posted some things on jealousy on my 7th thread, and I've started to see that he's right. Now if you're not going to roll that way on the basis of faith or morals, then I approve 100%. But if you're not going to do it because it gives WAW "permission" to do it, I'd submit you might want to reevaluate.
She's walked-away, man. She doesn't need "permission" to do anything. She's going to do what she's going to do.
Puppy, robx, LuckyGirl -- they've all suggested that you have an opportunity here to show WAW who orangedog is. Remember in high school -- the cheerleader would never go out with you until some other girl did? It's this weird female dynamic -- they need some kind of tribal stamp of approval. You know this from your married years -- what's the surest way of getting female attention in a bar? Wear a wedding ring.
Among all the orangedogs who orangedog "is" happens to be Desirable Guy orangedog (limited edition, very popular on eBay). So let WAW see that.
Remember what we see in DR and in so many threads here -- as we are, we LBS's, we aren't all that attractive to WAS's. When they look at us they see what they're leaving. But that's a highly selective, warped, incomplete picture. So fill in the blanks a bit.
If Da Ladeez are sending you warm messages, reciprocate.
Or not.
But make that decision for you, bro, not for us. We're just spectators, watching Team Orangedog -- you call the plays.
Executing plan now! Talked a little with W this morning about stuff including call from woman-friend. Shared some of their sitch and related it to ours. We can both see what they are going thru. I got a few "why didn't you..." to which I replied, either I didn't see it because I was in too deep or I didn't know how to resolve it. Now that I'm out I've seen things and improved my happiness.
Above all I told W that woman-friend told me life is short. If W doesn't appreciate you and the better man you are becoming then some other woman is going to "really cash in on you" Coffee in the morning, cookies in the afternoon, footrubs at night.
Back to work.
"My actions are my only true belongings. I cannot escape the consequences of my actions. My actions are the ground upon which I stand." Thich Nhat Hanh
Taking a break. We worked through the kitchen. It was emotional for both of us. It wasn't a big deal working through furniture but kitchen stuff has so many emotions tied in. Gifts from wedding, cups from vacation to wherever, cast-iron griddle for kids pancakes Sunday mornings, china, Oster beehive blender in copper (aka the Margarita Machine), Riedel glassware (our trip to Napa). And a discussion on the merits of stainless vs anodized cookware. (I wanted and got the stainless).
I visibly showed some stress once and she mentioned "you're doing that forehead wrinkling thing." "I know, I know, I haven't done in it weeks until this. Finished off with a big hug.
Flirty note: I was reaching up for something and my shirt rode up she commented, "Oooh, somebody has a smooooth tummy." I smiled back and said "Yup, and all the rest is too" (hands motioning below waist). She blushed. I don't know if it will lead to anything but I had nothing to lose.
"My actions are my only true belongings. I cannot escape the consequences of my actions. My actions are the ground upon which I stand." Thich Nhat Hanh
