WAW - Very confused and devastated - pt 9

[confusedinpa]

You will make progress if you accept you are confused about your W, and that you can not figure it out right now. It isn't necessary to give up hope, just keep it in check. Don't act like my dog that can get excited at the least little sound of my voice. If you see a positive, calmly make note of the positive, but don't go overboard with the reaction.

Thanks for the 2x4. Seems like I really lost focus when I thought I caught a glimmer of hope in last Friday's call.

I'm going to back to what I was doing before. It seemed to go better than what I was doing the past week.

Before I was Dark/Dim when I was not around her. I would only answer any text/email/voice mail if there was a clear question. And then it was a relatively short question. If she would try to chit chat about her day, I would let her talk for about a minute before politely excusing myself and saying good bye.

When we are together doing family stuff together, I will try to be attentive, warm, caring towards her, but my priority will be to enjoy my time with the kids and enjoy the moment/experience.

I will stop the physical touches again - I resumed them when she said that I could put my arm around her during the baseball game 2 Fridays ago (she brought it up, I didn't even consider it).

Seems like the past week or so has been a failed "experiment" based on the signals I had gotten during the baseball game, as well as some phone calls. Perhaps it was too much, too fast and she's retreating. I don't know, and will not spend any more time figuring out what happened.

[PMA_Baby!]

Once again you're looking to HER for answers. That is what everyone here is telling you YOU can't do that because she is CONFUSED. She doesnt know what she doesnt know. So forget HER and focus on YOU and the BOYSs.

You will get it soon enough.

Keep on keeping on. PMA

[sandi2]

I have a question for you. Did you use to be on the board and were known as Neil? Just curious b/c you remind me of him. If you are one in the same.....it would be helpful to let me know.

Thanks,
Sandi

[sandi2]

I have been reading more of your thread tonight. I see her in a different light unlike the way I did when you were talking about the family outing to the carnival. I figured she was the "typical" WAW. Now, I don't think she is......except for being confused about what she really wants. "Most" WAW's (IMHO) are not clingy and needy toward their LBH's like she is toward you. She seems to be co-dependent on you. In fact, both of you seem to be that way toward each other. I think it would certainly take more than an ordinary "counselor" to help her. She has issues that she will not drop. Maybe she thinks she "can't".....but some of the things she holds on to is b/c she "won't" let it go.....such as being mad at her sister for something that happen in high school! That is just stupid. It makes me want to get her and shake her b/c she has been blessed with healthy children and family (as far as I can tell) and you don't seem to have any financial burdens or other huge problems that so many people are faced with today. She sounds like a teenage girl that has her head in a romance novel and is disappointed that you are not like the "hero" in the novel. Life is not that way! It would surprise you to know how many women think that men "should" know how to read a woman's mind. Those "books" are the reason behind a lot of that mentality b/c they are written by female authors--and of course they are written with the hero being seen as every woman's dream lover. In those books, the man "does" know exactly what the woman needs. He knows what she is thinking without her saying anything. She never has to tell him what she needs sexually b/c he "just knows"! Of course, she always melts at his touch b/c he is so experienced in the ways of ML. It is all hype and women can escape to that dream world and fantasize. However, if she is not mature enough to accept what "reality" is and know that men CANNOT read a woman's mind and that she must TELL HIM what she needs......then she has set herself up for a great disappointment in the MR. I could be way off base, but that is what I am wondering about your W. She seems immature for her age when it comes to this area of life.

I am not dismissing her pain as a child...where her father is concerned. Knowing that she can't let other issues go.....I'm sure she has "allowed" that pain to control her entire life. She is still comparing her R with you to her father.

She is in limbo, which is typical of WAW's, but as I said before....most WAW's don't desire to call their H's several times and send emails, etc. So....there is something here that I haven't figured out yet and as I continue to read, maybe it will come to light better. I can't help but have this nagging thought that she may be using the D as her tool to get your attention. She must want it (unlike I first thought when I read about the carnival trip) b/c otherwise, why would she be the one to make all those calls? You said she was the center of your universe and then it stopped. So, is this a cry for your attention again?

She will get tired of playing house. As you said, the packing and unpacking has about played out and now reality is hitting her. Maybe when I read more I will see where she is torn about D or staying M.....but for now, I think she doesn't think of anything else but you.....just like you can't think of anything but her! You must admit.....when she left you and filed for D, she was once again the center of your universe! She had you undivided attention!

Just putting thoughts on paper. As I told you last night, I have not quite figured her out yet, but I don't think she is the "typical" WAW. I don't think she has "walked away" emotionally or mentally, yet.

BTW, I could tell in that one post about the carnival conversation that her self esteem was very low and she needed you to constantly feed her ego. When a woman says she "feels fat".....that is your clue, so wake up and realize that she is hinting for some ego food! Don't say you are sorry she feels that way and you plan to have a good time.......she is thinking about herself (which is typical of low self esteem) and she needs you to build her up. At least that is what she is wanting even though she would never "say" it to you. Instead of saying, "you look great, let's go".......you could stop everything and take a long good look at her and say, "Personally, I think you look pretty darn hot".......or something to that effect. To say, "you look nice" is a typical husband statement.....as if you never knew any other expression to compliment her. It doesn't weigh much if she's head it a lot. She needs to hear something new and fresh and exciting to her. That is why a lot of WAW's turn to OM. Her low self esteem could be one of the main reasons she is so clingy to you, but I don't know that for sure. It is unfortunate that she is this age and has not overcome more than she has. She needs somebody that could help her just in the area of self esteem.....alone. I don't think a spouse can make the other one "have" high self esteem, necessarily, but he/she can help "feed" it.

This may take some figuring out...... . I do not take away what I said last night about the advice I gave for your do's and don'ts, but I am trying to get a better picture of her. Anyway, take care and I will talk to you later.

Sandi

[confusedinpa]

I have a question for you. Did you use to be on the board and were known as Neil? Just curious b/c you remind me of him. If you are one in the same.....it would be helpful to let me know.

Sandi

No I was always CIPA and this is my first, and hopefully only time on this board

How did Neil windup?

[confusedinpa]

I have been reading more of your thread tonight. I see her in a different light unlike the way I did when you were talking about the family outing to the carnival. I figured she was the "typical" WAW. Now, I don't think she is......except for being confused about what she really wants. "Most" WAW's (IMHO) are not clingy and needy toward their LBH's like she is toward you. She seems to be co-dependent on you. In fact, both of you seem to be that way toward each other. I think it would certainly take more than an ordinary "counselor" to help her. She has issues that she will not drop. Maybe she thinks she "can't".....but some of the things she holds on to is b/c she "won't" let it go.....such as being mad at her sister for something that happen in high school! That is just stupid.

Sandi - Unfortunately, I'm actually glad that you are as confused by her as am I. My friends don't understand why she calls/emails/text either. Even tonite, when I was out with my boys, I got a text from her around 6:00 PM that she was still at work and complaining about how her boss asked for a report and blah blah blah. I waited about 30 minutes and just replied - "Ouch - tough way to start a long weekend". She replied right back that she was just finished. I wasn't sure if she thought I was going to invite her out with us or not, but I didn't even reply. She didn't call tonite though. It didn't bother me at all. I had a great time with the boys.

I know I've become emotionally co-dependent upon her. Ironically, when I met her, I didn't think of her other than a one nite stand, or a holiday fling (I met her 2 days before X-mas and the day after my ex-stripper girlfriend and I broke up). Now I used to just party with club girls and dancers. I never thought I would get married. My wife looks nothing like those types of girls. She was a "nice" girl. I think I was her first guy she dated outside of HS and church. Oddly, within the first month, I had practically moved in with her and inside of 3 months I did (even though I had just bought a house a couple of months before I met her). It was during that time that I fell in love with her. She was the first girl I ever met that I felt emotionally connected with or cared for me so sincerely. So we got pre-engaged about 6 months after I met her, engaged about 4 months after that and married 10 months after that.

On her side, with her father abandoning them when she was 7, she was always emotionally starved for male approval (at least that's the sense I got and the read that my therapist/marriage counselor got as well). My wife is full figured and has always been very self conscious of appearances. I am of a large build, but when I met her I was doing Karate 5 nites/week, 3 hours each nite as well as going to the gym where I was benching 300lbs and curling 135 lbs, so I was pretty solid. When I met her I stopped all that and over the years I had let myself go. Since the bomb and losing 25 lbs, she had even commented about how I'm now back to the same size (although not as solid yet) as when I met her. Meanwhile, since the bomb, she gained about 20 lbs. She even brought that up the nite of the carnival.

Where I've gotten emotionally dependent on her is that she kept my love tanks filled, even though (and I didn't realize it till after the bomb) I stopped filling hers. So I've become addicted to having my love tanks filled after they had never been filled before. I think that's part of my detachment, to wean myself off the love tank drug. I'm doing it slowly and surely, but the part that keeps me going back to the well is when I see how confused/sad/angry my boys get at times.

It makes me want to get her and shake her b/c she has been blessed with healthy children and family (as far as I can tell) and you don't seem to have any financial burdens or other huge problems that so many people are faced with today. She sounds like a teenage girl that has her head in a romance novel and is disappointed that you are not like the "hero" in the novel. Life is not that way! It would surprise you to know how many women think that men "should" know how to read a woman's mind. Those "books" are the reason behind a lot of that mentality b/c they are written by female authors--and of course they are written with the hero being seen as every woman's dream lover. In those books, the man "does" know exactly what the woman needs. He knows what she is thinking without her saying anything. She never has to tell him what she needs sexually b/c he "just knows"! Of course, she always melts at his touch b/c he is so experienced in the ways of ML. It is all hype and women can escape to that dream world and fantasize. However, if she is not mature enough to accept what "reality" is and know that men CANNOT read a woman's mind and that she must TELL HIM what she needs......then she has set herself up for a great disappointment in the MR. I could be way off base, but that is what I am wondering about your W. She seems immature for her age when it comes to this area of life.

Sandi - I do agree with you 100%. Even my therapist/marriage counselor had brought that up. The way she communicates (or doesn't) means I would need to be a mind reader to know what she wants. My therapist/marriage counselor has said that to her. When she heard that, she shut down very quickly and got very defensive once we got home (before she moved out). She would say that she tried everything and how could she have any fault if I didn't understand what she was trying to say. She says that happily married couples should be able to just look at each other accross the room and see the person's emotion/feelings in the other person's eyes. I almost couldn't contain my laughter/disbelief when she said it.

My therapist has even said that she seems to be holding onto the hurt for some reason that my therapist can figure out. She had made a one on one appointment with my therpist/marriage counselor but cancelled at the last minute. Oddly, that was also the first nite my wife and I hooked up again since the bomb.

I know I've hurt her feelings by neglecting her, but I do agree that we have everything else going for us materially (house, cars, etc) and 2 great boys. That was actually one of the things she tried to tell me when she wrote the lyrics of "Buy me a rose" by Kenny Rogers in a 1/2 anniversary card that she gave me last year. I read it but didn't get it at all - I thought she wanted me to buy her a rose and thought I was in trouble for not since we had never celebrated an 1/2 anniversary before. Boy was I off base....

I am not dismissing her pain as a child...where her father is concerned. Knowing that she can't let other issues go.....I'm sure she has "allowed" that pain to control her entire life. She is still comparing her R with you to her father.

This came up during counseling a couple of times. She said that she had always kept a distance from her dad as he has tried to reconnect since she got out of college (of course when she didn't need his financial support anymore). She said that she didn't think that he had/could really change into someone that she could count on. Even when he was suppose to come visit us and our kids for the holidays, she would wait to tell the kids until the day of and when he actually called to say he was on his way.

She is in limbo, which is typical of WAW's, but as I said before....most WAW's don't desire to call their H's several times and send emails, etc. So....there is something here that I haven't figured out yet and as I continue to read, maybe it will come to light better. I can't help but have this nagging thought that she may be using the D as her tool to get your attention. She must want it (unlike I first thought when I read about the carnival trip) b/c otherwise, why would she be the one to make all those calls? You said she was the center of your universe and then it stopped. So, is this a cry for your attention again?
She will get tired of playing house. As you said, the packing and unpacking has about played out and now reality is hitting her. Maybe when I read more I will see where she is torn about D or staying M.....but for now, I think she doesn't think of anything else but you.....just like you can't think of anything but her! You must admit.....when she left you and filed for D, she was once again the center of your universe! She had you undivided attention!

I've actually told her that I know she felt that she didn't have my attention in the past (I didn't argue starting when), but told her that she has my full undivided attention now. That was during my 180, but she kept saying that she didn't believe it and felt it was just an act/script that I was following. But I stayed consistent right up to the point she moved out. Even the day she moved out, she came and gave me a hug and wouldn't let go even though I tried to break off the hug a couple of times. I told her that my feelings haven't changed and I believe that the marriage relationship can work if both work on it. I told her that I was going to respect the time and space that she wants but not to take the fact that I'm not calling/contacting her that my feelings have changed. I told her that I will leave it up to her to initiate.

So, in short, do I think that the Divorce is just a play? I don't know - especially since we've already payed almost $8K in legal fees just to get us to this point. If it's just a play, I will be mad! I had asked her to even stop/pause the proceedings as she's figuring things out. She had said that she would think about it, but yet on Friday I got a notice to appear for child support hearing. I asked her about it and she said she had no idea as she didn't do anything to file for it.

Very frustrating/confusing

Just putting thoughts on paper. As I told you last night, I have not quite figured her out yet, but I don't think she is the "typical" WAW. I don't think she has "walked away" emotionally or mentally, yet.

That should be a good thing right? She has claimed that I chipped away all her love for me and threw it all away. Yet, during marriage counseling, my therapist/our counselor asked her point blank if she still loved me. She didn't give a yes or no answer. She rambled on for a bit and even my therapist didn't understand her answer.

She has recently said that she trust me with the boys and everything relative to the boys but can not see trusting me with her heart again. So, is that a sign that she's walked away emotionally/mentally?

BTW, I could tell in that one post about the carnival conversation that her self esteem was very low and she needed you to constantly feed her ego. When a woman says she "feels fat".....that is your clue, so wake up and realize that she is hinting for some ego food! Don't say you are sorry she feels that way and you plan to have a good time.......she is thinking about herself (which is typical of low self esteem) and she needs you to build her up. At least that is what she is wanting even though she would never "say" it to you. Instead of saying, "you look great, let's go".......you could stop everything and take a long good look at her and say, "Personally, I think you look pretty darn hot".......or something to that effect. To say, "you look nice" is a typical husband statement.....as if you never knew any other expression to compliment her. It doesn't weigh much if she's head it a lot. She needs to hear something new and fresh and exciting to her. That is why a lot of WAW's turn to OM. Her low self esteem could be one of the main reasons she is so clingy to you, but I don't know that for sure. It is unfortunate that she is this age and has not overcome more than she has. She needs somebody that could help her just in the area of self esteem.....alone. I don't think a spouse can make the other one "have" high self esteem, necessarily, but he/she can help "feed" it.

Sandi - I will definitely try what you suggested if the opportunity presents itself again. She had complained during counseling how when she would wear certain outfits out or when she would get her hair done/colored that I wouldn't notice. She said it made her feel like I didn't care or pay any attention to her. So that had been part of my 180. When she gets her nails done or hair colored or when she wears something hot, I say something. I did that right up to when she moved out. Problem was then she would complain during counseling how I was immature of how I was always commenting about how sexy I thought she looked. Guess I just can't win...

This may take some figuring out...... . I do not take away what I said last night about the advice I gave for your do's and don'ts, but I am trying to get a better picture of her. Anyway, take care and I will talk to you later.

Sandi - I've read you post many times (as others have suggested). I'm still digesting and trying to figure it all out. The general gist of it seems to be stop talking so much; listen; listen; and listen. When I do have to answer, keep it short and to the point, but with some interest/emotion (not cold). Did I get that about right?

[sandi2]

Sandi - I've read you post many times (as others have suggested). I'm still digesting and trying to figure it all out. The general gist of it seems to be stop talking so much; listen; listen; and listen. When I do have to answer, keep it short and to the point, but with some interest/emotion (not cold). Did I get that about right?

One of the places that "show" the co-dependency is through all the talking and lingering on the phone and the back & forth stuff with each other. It's as if watching a game of passing the ball back and forth and not getting to the goal. She is unsure and acts as if she wants you to continue to talk her into going and you basically keep saying the same thing over and over. What I was suggesting is that you say it one time and one time only--and if she wants to play the cat & mouse game.....let her play alone. Just tell her that the invitation stands and that you need to go and she can decide what she wants to do. Leave it at that and don't just keep on & on with the game. You see, it wasn't the "words" that you said that was all wrong.....it was b/c you just kept it going.

Let me ask another question, please. Have you noticed that it is when you have the boys that she seems to be doing so much calling, emailing, etc.? Does she seem to always have some kind of emotional problem, get more depressed, cry or whatever when it is your turn with the kids? Or.....does she do about the same as when she has the boys with her? I just wondered if it was more when the kids were with you. If it is.......that is her controlling.

As for her problems with her father.....if he has tried to reconnect with her and make a life with the grandchildren and she doesn't want it or continues to "blame" him, she apparently doesn't have a clue about forgiveness. No wonder she is messed up if she holds grudges toward everyone that ever said a cross word to her! I understand that a lot of children blame themselves when one of their parents leave the home, (I don't know that she blames "herslef" or not) but she is grown now and it is time to make ammends.......but I think she had rather hang on to it b/c she has allowed that experience to make up "who" she is and she won't let it go! She has based her entire life on that foundation. I don't have much patient with somebody like that who is not ready to make a new start. It is a form of selfishness. Now, if he had abused her in some way, that is different, but if he walked out on his wife......then the daughter needs to give her dad another chance at a R with her. At least he is trying and she is the one that wants to hold on to the past and keep a grudge alive. Her way of punishing him, I'm sure. She had no control over that R back then, but now she is the one controlling it.

Do you know that people with her personality type is a controller? Just like her playing the cat & mouse game......she knew what she was doing! Making you crawl (or at least she thought she was) when you kept assuring her that she was invited to the carnival. I thought I saw that the first time I read it, but I told myself this was a WAW and that was not logical. When you kept telling her to do what she wanted.....she kept hem-hawing around b/c she actually wanted to here you beg. Contolling! When she said what she did about feeling fat........she wanted you to assure her she wasn't. (Now most of us females have done and said that about our hair, size, clothes, etc., b/c we do feel insecure and want to hear our H's tell us we are wrong b/c we look super-great!) Yet, it is a form of control. Her complaining about the food and everything else at the carnival was an attempt (I believe) to have your undivided attention instead of you giving it all to the boys. Controlling! She is still controlling the R with her sister b/c of something that happen years ago. She does it by acting hurt or angry and stubbornly refuses to turn it lose and burry it. If she does that, then what kind of R would her and sister have? I bet she could use the same excuse with her father and sister as she does with you. I bet she thinks that she doesn't know if she can "trust" them not to hurt her again! Well baby, that is part of being an adult! We all take chances in relationships, whether it is family, lovers, or friends.

with her father abandoning them when she was 7, she was always emotionally starved for male approval (at least that's the sense I got and the read that my therapist/marriage counselor got as well).

You know, your W has been at this for many years. I wonder if she used the same excuse while she went through school. How long did you know her....or how soon after you met her did she bring up the subject of her father leaving? I am not talking like this to make you mad at me, but rather to get you to see through different eyes. Sure she was hurt......a lot of kids get hurt, just like she is going to hurt her boys if she goes through with the D (and she can't even see it). She doesn't seem to realize that she will cause them to have scars b/c all she is thinking about is herself!

Maybe it is true that she needs male attention b/c of the way her father did her. I am not saying that she wasn't deeply affected or that she doesn't feel that emptiness in her soul b/c of what happened. However, I have seen kids who would lose a parent in death and it would hurt them so badly, and yet those kids would turn around and "use" that as a gimmick to get attention or to controll the stitch and get what they wanted. So, one has to ask themselves if she is doing this. Maybe she doesn't have a clue that she is, but I bet a psy. doctor could have a field day!

I certainly can understand about the full figure and emotional eating. When I was in high school, I developed early and it got the boys attention, for sure. I had a good figure, but was self-concious with people looking at me. If I knew then....what I know now.....how differently I would handle things (lol). But seriously, the food is her crutch and the fact that she gained while you lost--just goes to show how people react differently to their problems and stress.

She says that happily married couples should be able to just look at each other accross the room and see the person's emotion/feelings in the other person's eyes. I almost couldn't contain my laughter/disbelief when she said it.

Hummmm, wonder why I had a "feeling" about that? If it wasn't so pathetic, it would be laughable. I even had my H and my grown D ask me if I thought real life was like the romance novels! No, I KNEW it wasn't.......I just WANTED IT TO BE! I wanted to find the guy in those books. Do you know that I was listening to a female author of romance novels talk about writing one of those books when she realized that she didn't have a clue as to how men "thought"? She would write how we women "wanted" men to think!! Now what does that tell you? It tells me a lots of generations of women have been misled by what silly books have told them. The women are silly for believing it, but it happens all the time. They think that men are born knowing how women think and what their emotional needs are without ever having to ask. They can just "look into their eyes and know". PLEASE!

My therapist has even said that she seems to be holding onto the hurt for some reason that my therapist can figure out. She had made a one on one appointment with my therpist/marriage counselor but cancelled at the last minute. Oddly, that was also the first nite my wife and I hooked up again since the bomb.

I don't think your W wants the therapist to go too deep and figure her out! I believe she was afraid to go by herself b/c the therapist could have seen the underlying problem and your W did not want to face it and went where she knew she would be treated with love and assurance......which was you! She was once again controlling the stitch. Have you thought about it like that? Facing the therapist alone is much like facing a parent for her. She might actually have to give an accountability! She doesn't want to accept responsibility for whatever has gone wrong. She may have thought that her father left b/c of her mother and "her", but I think she blamed her father for the pain he caused her. She blames her sister. She blames you. She is controlling and prolonging the stitch as it stands now by always going over this same junk about how she doesn't know if she can trust you with her heart again. PLEASE! That almost sounds like something our of one of those novels!

a 1/2 anniversary card

Isn't that a bit immature?

But I stayed consistent right up to the point she moved out. Even the day she moved out, she came and gave me a hug and wouldn't let go even though I tried to break off the hug a couple of tim

So, see? This sentence alone......changes my mind about her from that post regarding the carnival night. She wanted you to cry and beg her not to go.......and "if" you did, she didn't think you have suffered enough for ignoring her the way you have.

I told her that I will leave it up to her to initiate.

If there is no OM, and she is confused about reality with fantasy, then for her to initiate things is not her fantasy! In the romance novels, the hero "always" pursues the female.

So, in short, do I think that the Divorce is just a play? I don't know - especially since we've already payed almost $8K in legal fees just to get us to this point. If it's just a play, I will be mad! I had asked her to even stop/pause the proceedings as she's figuring things out. She had said that she would think about it, but yet on Friday I got a notice to appear for child support hearing. I asked her about it and she said she had no idea as she didn't do anything to file for it.

Money does not mean that much b/c she has not been in "need" of it like some others may have. Her need is "attention". Her need is control. I'm sure when her father walked out, she saw her mother showing fear and felt like things were very unsure. That is scary for a little girl. Maybe (playing therapist, here) she vowed that she would always have control of the things around here. However, I doubt that she is consciously "aware" that she is doing that. (She could be, but I not knowing her....I couldn't say.) To me, it just makes sense that this is what she is doing b/c it does not line up with the typical WAW. Now, when I first read about the carnival night....yes, I thought she was but even then, as you remember, I saw something that wasn't along the same route as a usual WAW.

She had complained during counseling how when she would wear certain outfits out or when she would get her hair done/colored that I wouldn't notice. She said it made her feel like I didn't care or pay any attention to her.

Listen, I dc not mean to sound harsh and cruel toward her, but this sounds so petty to me. Apparently she has not had to face real tragidy in her life before or she would see how silly this is if that is all she can find wrong in her marriage!!! I can see a 20 year-old that has been M maybe a year, but not after all this time and at her age. She sounds very, very spoiled to me. Unless there is something very serious that happened that I am not aware of.......she had it made and didn't have the good sence to realize it. Petty!! All of it is pettiness! I could turn her over my lap and spank her bottom! These are things couples can talk out and you don't D somebody b/c they didn't pay attention to your nails being freshly done! So, she may have tried to tell you and you didn't listen.......don't you think this is rather drastic to get you to notice a hair-do? Is this all she told the therapist?? You said:

I know I've hurt her feelings by neglecting her

How exactly have you rejected her? Does she call you not noticing a new outfit, rejection?

Yet, during marriage counseling, my therapist/our counselor asked her point blank if she still loved me. She didn't give a yes or no answer. She rambled on for a bit and even my therapist didn't understand her answer.

Again, this is control. If she has said that she still loved you, then the therapist would have tried to go from that point in working it out. If she said she didn't love you then she would be pushed into following through with the D. This way, nothing moves until she decides it will. Contol!

When I do have to answer, keep it short and to the point, but with some interest/emotion (not cold). Did I get that about right?

Yes, you got the message. But you know, (amd maybe I'm jumping the gun here) but I am wondering if you've tried all these things and all the 180's have not worked........then I have to go back to my original post I sent you before I even read about this part of her. You remember me stating to drop the rope? I don't know if you have the courage or not......only you can decide, but I think you need to call her bluff! Force her out of that control mode. Until you force her out......she is going to make life on earth pure hell for you! She will wear you down with these emotional dramas of hers until you will have no strength or hope left. Don't allow her to do that. I think you are too close to the problem to see it, but that is what I'm seeing after reading more information. I still stand on what I told you about no touching and the phone calls, etc. But I have certainly changed my mind about her. She is not the typical WAW b/c she does not want to turn loose of her control over you. She wants you to chase and pursue her like in the romance books. However, she needs to learn seveal lessons in life. Beginning with her father and sister and then going to you and that R in the M. I promise you this......if you do not call her bluff and you play along with her game and do what she "wants" and not what she "needs"........she will repeat this over and over everytime things do not go exactly as she wants. Everytime you turn your foot the wrong way, she will think, "this is not how is is suppose to be" and out the door she will go to "control" you and the stitch.

Talk to you later,
Sandi

[confusedinpa]

One of the places that "show" the co-dependency is through all the talking and lingering on the phone and the back & forth stuff with each other. It's as if watching a game of passing the ball back and forth and not getting to the goal. She is unsure and acts as if she wants you to continue to talk her into going and you basically keep saying the same thing over and over. What I was suggesting is that you say it one time and one time only--and if she wants to play the cat & mouse game.....let her play alone. Just tell her that the invitation stands and that you need to go and she can decide what she wants to do. Leave it at that and don't just keep on & on with the game. You see, it wasn't the "words" that you said that was all wrong.....it was b/c you just kept it going.

That's a good suggestion. I will definitely keep that in mind and try it next time!

Let me ask another question, please. Have you noticed that it is when you have the boys that she seems to be doing so much calling, emailing, etc.? Does she seem to always have some kind of emotional problem, get more depressed, cry or whatever when it is your turn with the kids? Or.....does she do about the same as when she has the boys with her? I just wondered if it was more when the kids were with you. If it is.......that is her controlling.

Ironically it seems about the same frequency to me - although last Friday (4 weeks since she moved out) was the first time she called to say goodnite to the kids when I had them. She calls me everytime and if she doesn't call by their normal bed time, I call them. An hour or so after their bed time, she would call a few times a week - mostly chit chat stuff. Last Friday and Tues call was the first ones with relationship stuff in it that she initiated.

She had no control over that R back then, but now she is the one controlling it.

Do you know that people with her personality type is a controller? Just like her playing the cat & mouse game......she knew what she was doing! Making you crawl (or at least she thought she was) when you kept assuring her that she was invited to the carnival. I thought I saw that the first time I read it, but I told myself this was a WAW and that was not logical. When you kept telling her to do what she wanted.....she kept hem-hawing around b/c she actually wanted to here you beg. Contolling!

Again, ironically, she said that I was controlling of the relationship that made it unbearable as I neglected her. I know over the past couple of years I had gotten more controlling as I was getting overwhelmed by stress at work, kids and her. So I slipped into a mild depression that drove the controlling behaviors. I've been working on improving my coping skills with my therapist and is much more relaxed and back to enjoying life. Now my therapist thinks my wife is depressed.

When she said what she did about feeling fat........she wanted you to assure her she wasn't. (Now most of us females have done and said that about our hair, size, clothes, etc., b/c we do feel insecure and want to hear our H's tell us we are wrong b/c we look super-great!)

That I know - now. Before I would just say I love you just the way you are. Now I understand what she was really looking for.

You know, your W has been at this for many years. I wonder if she used the same excuse while she went through school. How long did you know her....or how soon after you met her did she bring up the subject of her father leaving? I am not talking like this to make you mad at me, but rather to get you to see through different eyes.

Sandi - this doesn't make me made at all. It actually makes me feel better knowing someone is helping/interested to get me through this.

She actually brought it up pretty early - about a couple of weeks afterwards. I didn't think much of it as I was still treating it as a "booty call" relationship. I think we got really connected when her grandmother died and she was devastated and leaned on me to get through that point.

Sure she was hurt......a lot of kids get hurt, just like she is going to hurt her boys if she goes through with the D (and she can't even see it). She doesn't seem to realize that she will cause them to have scars b/c all she is thinking about is herself!

That's the part that drives me crazy and gets me frustrated. I had brought that up and she says that they will be fine. Just look at her and I (speaking from a career success standpoint). We are both from divorced parents and very financially successful.

I don't think your W wants the therapist to go too deep and figure her out! I believe she was afraid to go by herself b/c the therapist could have seen the underlying problem and your W did not want to face it and went where she knew she would be treated with love and assurance......which was you! She was once again controlling the stitch. Have you thought about it like that? Facing the therapist alone is much like facing a parent for her. She might actually have to give an accountability! She doesn't want to accept responsibility for whatever has gone wrong.

This is EXACTLY what my therapist/marriage counselor says!

She wanted you to cry and beg her not to go.......and "if" you did, she didn't think you have suffered enough for ignoring her the way you have.

This I agree with you as well. The weekend before she left she started saying that as soon as she moves out, I will just forget her and move on. She said it a few times before I asked her is that what she wants me to do or is it what she plans to do. She said that she didn't know what she wants and that's she thinks that I will just get so mad and do just that.

Gotta go - she just pulled up

[confusedinpa]

Sorry for the pause - today is the birthday party for my two boys. Their B'day's were just a couple of weeks before she left (great B'day present by her don't you think). She told them the day after Easter she was moving out, in fact while the boys and I were eating the Easter dinner she cooked, she left to get the moving truck. She wanted to tell them on Easter but I adamantly opposed it. Then she told them on Monday before I got home. I was pissed. I can see what you mean by controlling now by the way she behaved during that time. Absolutely ridiculous....

Anyway, she had asked if I wanted her to help with the party. I said I could handle it by myself, but she could if she wanted to. So we had lunch a couple of weeks ago to plan the party. So that's why she was come over today.

So I'll pick up where I left off...

She wanted you to cry and beg her not to go.......and "if" you did, she didn't think you have suffered enough for ignoring her the way you have.

This I agree with you as well. The weekend before she left she started saying that as soon as she moves out, I will just forget her and move on. She said it a few times before I asked her is that what she wants me to do or is it what she plans to do. She said that she didn't know what she wants and that's she thinks that I will just get so mad and do just that. So maybe that's what she is afraid I would do, I couldn't really tell from her answer...

If there is no OM, and she is confused about reality with fantasy, then for her to initiate things is not her fantasy! In the romance novels, the hero "always" pursues the female.

That's a good point, but I guess I shouldn't take that as a swing away sign to start pursuing her then......

Her need is "attention". Her need is control. I'm sure when her father walked out, she saw her mother showing fear and felt like things were very unsure. That is scary for a little girl. Maybe (playing therapist, here) she vowed that she would always have control of the things around here.

One of the things that she had brought up with in our post bomb marriage counseling was how she had always seen her mom as weak for waiting/wanting her dad to come back even when he cheated on her several times. She said that she vowed that she would never be that weak for needing a man to be "happy"

Relative to control, she is very methodical and follows things by the rules/procedures. I guess that can be construed as controlling. She does like things in a very exact manner. It drives her crazy if the house is a mess with toys everywhere. I think I will talk to my therapist/marriage counselor about this when I see her again.

Listen, I dc not mean to sound harsh and cruel toward her, but this sounds so petty to me. Apparently she has not had to face real tragidy in her life before or she would see how silly this is if that is all she can find wrong in her marriage!!!

I AGREE 100%!!!! We weren't cruising on easy street as we both worked full time, but we were at the point that she could have been a stay at home mom if she wanted to. The big difference would have been that we wouldn't have to pay the $2200/month daycare bill if she wasn't working. We did go out to eat whenever we wanted and I know part of the problem is that I am very frugal so if we spent a lot of money, I always made notice of it (she said that it made her uncomfortable that I made note of it, but we usually spent it anyway).

Another thing that she had brought up was how one year when I got her a SUV (we lease so she gets a new one every 2-3 years) and she was thinking about a sunroof.

I "challenged" her if she really wanted one as I've had bad experiences with them (they leak and are noisy on the highway). She didn't really say she wanted one after that. So when the dealer called to say they found one in the right color and it didn't have the sunroof, I didn't think it was a big deal. She harped on it almost every other counseling session since the bomb.

She said I made her feel like she wasn't worth a sunroof. I had told her that if she really wanted one, she should have just told me she wanted on, she should have just told me. I mean there's not a big difference in leasing a $34K vehicle vs $35K vehicle. I mean rediculous....

How exactly have you rejected her? Does she call you not noticing a new outfit, rejection?

This I know I did really make her feel rejected - particularly in the last 3 years. I had started a new job with global responsibilities so I had work to do almost around the clock (dealing with Europe and Asia as well as the Americas). So I would have conference calls starting at 9PM that may last until 11PM. Or conference calls that would start at 5AM. So even when I was home, I was working after the I put the kids to bed. She said that she wanted me to go to bed with her, but I didn't allow myself the time to do that. We got down to sex just about once/quarter and even then it was just about me (I know very selfish). I would have to travel on very short notice and would take it for granted that she would be able to accomodate my work schedule as I would also have late business dinners/meetings.

She would want us to go out, just the two of us, and I couldn't (wouldn't) make time for it unless we scheduled it 2 months out.

I do agree that I neglected her, I did not give her the attention that she deserved. I almost treated her as "hired help". I know what I did was wrong. In my focus to give her and the boys all the things that they would ever need, I forgot to give them myself. This is 100% my ownership.

Problem was that I didn't see the problem/pain that was causing her. She said even when she would ask me to go out, I would say "Sure, if that's what you want to do". She would interpret that as I didn't want to go, but would only go if she was going to drag me along. This came up in marriage counseling post bomb. I told her that I meant that I loved her so much that whatever she wanted to do would be great as long as we were together. I guess when your heart/mind is in a negative place, everything that you hear/see can be placed in a negative context. I just didn't know back then. I know now. Unfortunately, she said that its too late.....

Again, this is control. If she has said that she still loved you, then the therapist would have tried to go from that point in working it out. If she said she didn't love you then she would be pushed into following through with the D. This way, nothing moves until she decides it will. Contol!

After she told the kids without me that she was moving out, I told her that I had felt that she had a "master plan" of what she was going to do and how it was going to be done, regardless of my thoughts on it. She was livid when I got home and sat down with the boys for a "family meeting" the day she told them. She asked if she could attend and I said that she could if she wanted to. She asked what I was going to say. I said that I was going to tell them what I thought we should have told them together. When I told them that it was ok to be sad (my 7 year old had started to tear up during the meeting), she got mad afterwards saying that I shouldn't say that as they will feel what we want them to feel. I almost said WTF, but told her that was BS. They will feel sad/hurt and to think otherwise is crazy.

Sorry for the tangent, but probably since the bomb, that was the most angry I had gotten. I didn't get angry when she hit me with the bomb, I collapsed into a mess and did all the wrong things (cried, begged, pleaded, etc.). It took me 2-3 weeks to get it under control. In hindsight, whatever respect she had for me at that point, I'm sure she lost it (she had NEVER seen me cry before).

But you know, (amd maybe I'm jumping the gun here) but I am wondering if you've tried all these things and all the 180's have not worked........then I have to go back to my original post I sent you before I even read about this part of her. You remember me stating to drop the rope? I don't know if you have the courage or not......only you can decide, but I think you need to call her bluff!

Remember, as I'm a DAM, as I ask this question - what do you mean by drop the rope? I had thought this was to be Dark/Dim. When I did this, she thought I was cold/mean. We do see each other at least once/week when we go to the kids sport games. Right now we do dinner together as a family before the game. Are you saying I should stop doing that?

I am hesitant to do anything too radical as one of the things she kept harping on my 180's is that she felt that it wasn't real, couldn't last, was an act or I was following a script to try and get her back. I don't want her to take it as, see, I knew it was fake and he's right back to the neglectful person that made the marriage miserable.

Prior to the backslide this past 1.5 weeks (when I took the signal when she said I could put my arm around her and she nestled next to me during the baseball game), I had been Dark/Dim when I'm not physically with her (even when she would call/text/email). When I mean Dark/Dim, I would not say very much, I wouldn't respond to her text/email unless there was a clear question that required an answer. I didn't answer when she would ask how I was doing or how my day was going in a text/email. Sometimes not even when she would call (I would just say it was going or ignore the question completely).

When she would call, I would be positive, upbeat and give her some attention for about a minute or so as she chit chatted, but then would end the call by saying that I had to go or that she sounded busy/tired so I would let her go. I would always try to do it very politely.

When we were together, I would be positive, upbeat and give her my attention, knowing that it would only last for a couple of minutes before one of my boys would try to get one of our attention. Prior to that baseball game, I would never touch her, let alone rub her arm or kiss the side of her head.

I think all the physical affection was too much to fast for her. So I'm going back to the pre-baseball arm around her signal mode. Unless drop the rope is something else....

Thanks for your help and thoughts!

[confusedinpa]

Just some journaling.

On Friday, I had gotten a couple of emails/calls from her. I didn't answer except when she called right before lunch. I wasn't sure if she was calling to go out to lunch or what (I already had planned with my friend) but I answered it while I was in the truck. She had called to follow up on her email about soemthing tactical. I just said ok and ended the call quickly.

After lunch she emailed me a couple more things about her dad and other stuff. Her dad just got laid off that day so that was the only one I responded to as "That must be really hard for him" - I waited about 45 minutes before I replied. She responded right away with a few gripes/comments. I didn't respond.

Then when the boys and I were heading out to dinner, she sent me an email complaining about how she was till at work and griping about how her boss was looking for a report. I waited about 30 minutes and just responded with "Tough way to start a long weekend". She responded right away that she just got done. I didn't respond and she didn't call that nite.

On Sat she came over for the boy's B'day party. She showed up about 15 minutes early with food and other stuff that she prepared. We both hurried to get setup. It almost seemed like she had still lived there and she hadn't filed for divorce. She did remark on a few changes that I made to the house since she left that she liked. She even called me "Hun" a couple of times (probably just a slip of the tongue or habit).

I thought things were going relatively well but did notice that her mom was glaring/frowning at me often and when I would look at her she would turn her head. Whenever I went to talk to my wife about something, she was always there, almost like she was trying to protect her from me and my relatives (about 90% of the people there were my relatives). I just ignored the way she was acting. Her dad was there as well (those were the only 2 of her relatives there).

I spent most of the time with the boys and my friends and relatives that came over. I hadn't seen many of my relatives in almost 6 months. One came in from Denver that I haven't seen in 2 years. It was a really good time and the boys enjoyed being the center of attention for my relatives (I am one of two nephew/niece with kids and my relatives love kids). A couple of my cousins gets along extremely well with her mom as well. Very weird seeing her all chummy with them and wouldn't even look at me in the eye (I really hope she's not steering my wife down this path).

When the party was over, my wife asked about taking some of the toys they had gotten to her apt. My son had asked about taking one item there as we had one already, so I just handed her the item. She said that was it? And started saying how she was tired of having to buy toys for the kids and how they had so much here but hardly anything there. She said that as she was walking out to her car.

I went out there and told her that the boys know they can take whatever they want over there. I am not stopping them. They just have chosen to keep most of their toys at home. She didn't respond.

I then told her that I do appreciate the help she gave in preparing food for the party. She said that she thought things went ok but she did feel awkward.

I validated and then thanked her again and said goodbye.

I wound up calling her later (hold on to the 2x4's!!!) as when I was cleaning up, I couldn't find any of the gift cards or checks that the boys got as gifts. I asked if she knew where they may be as I didn't want to dig through the trash I had already put out. She said that she had taken them by accident and appologized. I just thought - yeah right, accident...

I told her that I was going to take the boys to go buy some things, but would wait till next week then.

She didn't call tonite - and it doesn't bother me at all.

She is picking up the boys tomorrow morning. My oldest tonite asked if I was off on Monday as well. I said I was. He asked if he and his brother could spend time with me that day as well. I said of course, but he would have to ask mommy. He just said never mind then, as he didn't think she would let them. I said you never know unless you ask and left it at that.

I have a busy day planned for Sunday - I'm going to go to church, then attend my small group that I joined and then on to the gym. Then I have to finish cleaning up the house from the party and I'm suppose to go out with my friends Sunday nite to Philly (couldn't do Atlantic City as originally planned as my buddy with the place there wasn't available).

I hope my boys can come visit on Monday. That would really make this weekend. I'll just have to be careful not to be too hung over just in case.....

Hope everyone enjoys the holiday!