WAW - Very confused and devastated - pt 9

[sandi2]

Okay, maybe this is not fair to you b/c I've not read the beginning of your stitch, but this is what I'm picking up on just from this post alone....okay? Now, this is my not knowing if there is an OM or not. Do you suspect an EA? Even if there is no OM, she has all the WAW signs, for sure! I also see way, way too much talking from both sides of the fense. Both of you are over-killing the conversations. You must be the one to control that. I gather by your long post (like mine) that you are a natural talker, so that may be hard for you to cut down, but that is MHO.

That she didn't think that I include her in stuff, and inviting her was an after thought.

This is the illogical thinking of a WAW b/c if she has filed for a D, she should not consider being invited to the things you are included in, such as taking the kids to a carnival.

Well, she sent me a picture of my son and his cast at the ice cream place.

Why would she do that? Have you asked youself that? If she does not want to continue a R with you, then I would think she would not be concerned about you having a picture. You could take your own of the son. Illogical thinking.

I called her to thank her for the picture as well as her help in taking care of it today.

That was an "excuse" to talk to her and you know it is a big no-no. Stop the phone calls.

I did mention to her that she was welcome to join us for the carnival if she wanted to,

You kept up with the talking and it was toooo much. I know you can't see it....but trust me, I can.

but didn't want her to feel pressure to.

Now, listen to me, please. That one added phrase put pressure on her!! Stop doing that! I saw that repeatedly in your post where you were saying that. Please break yourself from it.

I said that she should do what she wants to do and not come just because she thought we expected her to. She then said that she didn't want to do family stuff together. I said then she shouldn't come if that's how she felt.

Yada, yada, yada.....on and on and on! Just say, "okay" and shut up. Both of you just keep going on and on.

She was really agitated. I told her, very calmly, that she was welcome to come if she wanted to come, but I don't want her to come if she is doesn't want or will be resentful of it. I said I know the boys and I will have fun if she came and we will have fun if she didn't. She got agitated to the point where she couldn't speak and said that she would call me back in 5 minutes

.

Yep. On and on. Can you see where you are absolutely in "over-kill" drive here? She was trying to tell you something you were not hearing b/c you were driving home a point to her. Of course she got agitated. I would have too. It sounds as if she just gave up in defeat....but I could be wrong. She is saying and doing a lot of things that seem to be illogical for a person wanting a D.

As we were gettting ready to leave the ball field, my wife still hadn't called so I called her (I know - WRONG MOVE!!!).

Yeah? You KNOW it was wrong move? Then tell me why you did it? Why do LBH's do what they KNOW is the wrong move? You also must know, then, that you were applying greater pressure than before by calling her back......again. I'm just trying to make you wake up. I read this kind of messages from LBS's all the time. They KNOW it is not the right DB move, but they are going to do it or bust a gut!

She then got agitated again as she said that she was about to say that she was going to go with us but is confused now as it sounded like I didn't want her to come. I then said, very calmly that I would love for her to come if she wanted to come, but not if she was coming just to appease me or the boys.

Well....here we go again. Yada, yada.

I wound up saying that I don't think she was really ready to do what would make them happy (implying coming back home) and feel that giving them false hope just adds to the hurt.

Oh, trust me.....she got your message loud and clear! Man, can't you see how big of a mistake that was? Why do you insist on doing the things you KNOW is wrong? You are digging your D grave a little deeper everytime you cannot resist this jabs.

"Hi. You look great. Are you ready to go?"

Typical "husband script" remark. Could you try to be a little more original?

She grumbled about feeling fat and grumpy. I just said I'm really sorry to hear that but this is the nicest nite we've had in a while so it should be a good time.

You are kidding, right? You didn't really say that.

"Good call hun. It looks like the boys are having a blast and it's a really nice nite".

MORE PRESSURE! Don't call her "hun".......she is divorcing you! She doesn't want to feel like she is M to you and doesn't want you calling her those M names.....like "hun". The rest of that sentence was you showing her how "great" it would be to stay M for the "boys" sake. She is a female and she is smart. Stop treating her like she doesn't have good sense and that she can't read you a mile off.

stood behind her as I rubbed both her arms to warm her up . I then massaged her shoulders lightly and remarked how tense they felt. She said she was tense. I stopped and asked her if this was too much and making her tense. She said no so I did it for a few more minutes before the kids ran up to get some more pretzels and drink from us.

Took advantage, didn't you? She knew it! She just didn't have the energy to fight you. For gosh sakes, stop putting pressure on her like that. You were in a public place and you took advantage of touching her. You should not do that. How many times have you been told? I haven't even read your thread and I'll bet people have told you over and over again not to do that.

She said she was tense. I stopped and asked her if this was too much and making her tense. She said no so I did it for a few more minutes before the kids ran up to get some more pretzels and drink from us.

Of course you did. Do you not know that merly "asking" her if what you were doing made her tense.......did in fact MAKE HER TENSE? I know, she said no, but she didn't mean it. She just did not want to make matters worse and was trying to get through the night the best she could. But, you pursued!

When it was time to go, we walked closely and I pulled her close and just kissed the side of her head saying I was glad she came. She didn't say anything.

Just couldn't stop, could you?

I wanted to give her a hug goodbye, but could sense that wasn't what she wanted

Oh really! You could FINALLY sense that, huh?

So it started out rough, but I don't think it went too bad.

Any thoughts/comments?

Yes, I have a thought and comment.......typical DAM! (Dumb Ass Man)

So, by now you may be sorry you asked me to come by and look at your thread, but I have been painfully honest with you and if you never talk to me again.....I hope that I may have made you see a tiny bit of the wrong way you are going about this.....from the POV of a WAW. I was that woman. I know those moves! Please, if you want her back.....stop talking to her all the time. when you MUST talk with her.....keep it very short and sweet and stop the "over-kill". She has it too, but I haven't quite figured her out and will need to read more......for you.....you are the typical LBH. The very best move you can do is to open your ears and start listening to other WAW's or LBS's that learned too late their mistakes. Don't listen to people who have just came aboard and don't know their head from a hole in the ground and not doing any better than you are. And......I don't know that anyone like that has posted to you b/c I have not read the thread. It is fine for people to "reach out" to one another, but I'm just saying that folks that have "been there" are the ones that know the score and you need to listen, but most of all.......start DOING what you are advised.

I don't apologize for being plain spoken or using a 2x4 when a person has been on the board this long and is still doing the same mistakes that he would have been doing when he first arrived. I don't get it. Why do you insist on repeating them? Can you not honestly see what you are doing, or you think you can't stop yourself? I'm not trying to be a smart-a$$, I am honestly wanting to know. Is it the differnces in the sexes and not understanding? Even so, by now I would think you should be getting a better picture. Unless (and I pray that you aren't) one of those men who think they are always "right" and she is always in the wrong and you can't "hear" what others are trying to tell you.

Well, I will see how you take this and then go from there.

Sandi

[MrBond]

CIPA,

I hope you take Sandi's advice. She's really helped me through my sitch and was the one who told me to go "dim" with my W when we were separated. She's definitely a gem on these boards.

stuck

[confusedinpa]

Yes, I have a thought and comment.......typical DAM! (Dumb Ass Man)

So, by now you may be sorry you asked me to come by and look at your thread, but I have been painfully honest with you and if you never talk to me again.....I hope that I may have made you see a tiny bit of the wrong way you are going about this.....from the POV of a WAW. I was that woman. I know those moves! Please, if you want her back.....stop talking to her all the time. when you MUST talk with her.....keep it very short and sweet and stop the "over-kill". She has it too, but I haven't quite figured her out and will need to read more......for you.....you are the typical LBH. The very best move you can do is to open your ears and start listening to other WAW's or LBS's that learned too late their mistakes. Don't listen to people who have just came aboard and don't know their head from a hole in the ground and not doing any better than you are. And......I don't know that anyone like that has posted to you b/c I have not read the thread. It is fine for people to "reach out" to one another, but I'm just saying that folks that have "been there" are the ones that know the score and you need to listen, but most of all.......start DOING what you are advised.

I don't apologize for being plain spoken or using a 2x4 when a person has been on the board this long and is still doing the same mistakes that he would have been doing when he first arrived. I don't get it. Why do you insist on repeating them? Can you not honestly see what you are doing, or you think you can't stop yourself? I'm not trying to be a smart-a$$, I am honestly wanting to know. Is it the differnces in the sexes and not understanding? Even so, by now I would think you should be getting a better picture. Unless (and I pray that you aren't) one of those men who think they are always "right" and she is always in the wrong and you can't "hear" what others are trying to tell you.

Well, I will see how you take this and then go from there.

Sandi

Sandi,

I do appreciate the candor and bluntness of your thoughts. That has been my perpetual problem with my wife. I can never understand what she is really saying. She had even told me that she had made up her mind in Sept but wanted to sit on the decision for 2-3 months to make sure it "would sit right with her". She said that she tried to tell me 3 times between Sept and end of Dec and she saw each time I didn't get it. I still can't figure out what she said or when she said it. I got it though when she said that she saw a lawyer and signed divorce papers.

Anyway, I don't believe there is someone else, but I can not be 100% for sure. I do believe she has some well meaning girl friends that are telling her to do what makes her happy and that she shouldn't try just for the kids.

She has been doing a lot of illogical stuff. I think it all relates back to the heart of the problem is that she feels shortly after we got married, she went from being the most important person to me to thinking she fell off my radar. She has low self esteem, particularly relative to males, as her dad cheated on her mom when she was 7 and left with no/little contact for about 15 years. She would see her mom waiting and pursuing before finally filing for divorce when her dad wanted to marry someone else. But then again, I'm no therapist. My therapist was also our marriage counselor (not the one I fired).

My therapist says my wife is not a very clear communicator and has an unreasonable expectation of finding some fairy tale relationship where the guy can read her mind. The marriage counselor I fired said that he had no idea that she was that unhappy (I told him right after I got hit with the bomb). He said that he thought we were starting to do so much better about 6 months ago and "rounded the bend". We had seen him for an hour every week for almost a year.

I had done some backsliding over the past week relative to Dark/Dim. I had went Dark/Dim right after she moved out. I never initiated any contact (text/email/calls). She would send me sseveral things almost everyday. Some of it was tactical - what we had to do with the kids. Some were jokes. Some were just chit chat about how her day was going, how I was doing, etc. I would respond to the text/emails only when there was a clear question. And usually with a short yes or no. When she would call, I would always be the one to end the call by saying either it was getting late or there was a lot going on so I had to go.

After a week or so of that (about 3 weeks ago), my wife called me in tears saying that she was really confused as she thought I was being so mean and cold to her and asked if I had given up as well. She said that I made her feel like she didn't belong with me and the boys. That was after my 3 year old's baseball where we have gotten into a routine of meeting for dinner as a family in the park before the game. At that point, I had reminded her that she had left me and filed for divorce. I said that I didn't think that she wanted me to treat her the way I wanted to (like a wife) so I didn't know how she wanted me to treat her.

She told me that I should treat her the way I want to. If it's too much, she said she would tell me. She said that if I wanted her to spend time with me/us, I should invite her, not pressure/guilt her, but just invite her. She also said that if I wanted to call, just call. Etc.

I think the problem was that I went Dark/Dim when she moved out, but when we would do things together as a family, I would stay Dark/Dim and just focus on enjoying myself with the boys. So since the problem with our relationship we have is that she is hurt from being neglected and can't trust me with her heart anymore (her exact words), I resumed my 180 that I started before she moved. I would be warm, caring, attentive when we were together, but Dark/Dim all other times.

An interesting note is about 6-8 weeks before she moved out, she had even said how proud she was of me of how I changed and how I'm such a better, happier person now. She said that the problem is that she still feels hurt when she sees me and doesn't think that she would ever want me for a husband again (OUCH). She also then implied that she doesn't believe the changes are real and are just short term.

I started the touching thing again, because about two weeks ago, we went to a baseball game together where my 7 year old was throwing out the opening pitch of a minor league game. I had tried to have the boys sit between us (figure it would be a good buffer to make sure I behaved). She wound up sitting next to me. As the game started, she said that if it would be more comfortable for me, since the seats are so tightly packed, that I could put my arm around her. I did and she nestled into me slightly. We spent most of that game just chatting and enjoying the moment.

My backslide really started when last Friday she called up in tears and it accelerated when she called up in tears on Tues as well. She has said that she hasn't changed her mind, but she was sad. Up till that point, I had really given up hope and had been DB/DR to work on myself. To make me a better person and dad.

I think when she said that while she hasn't changed her mind, she feels that she needs to find an individual therapist before we could start marriage counseling again. That was the first time since she moved out that we even talked about that. Then on Tues she was in tears about how sad she was about the situation and it's not what she wanted when we got married.

Last nite's convo, I think is really making me think that she's just stressed about the boy's B'day party on Sat. She had asked me if she could help with the party, as well as come over, when I told her that I was going to have a B'day party for them. I had said yes and she even suggested that we meet for lunch to talk about the details a couple of weeks ago. We did and worked together like a team to get everything set up. Now she's stressing about seeing my family for the first time since she's moved out. I think that's why she is so emotional this week (plus it's a bad time of the month for her - she got really bad cramps starting yesterday).

I do see that I've backslid pretty bad and need to get my head back onto Dark/Dim. How should I handle when we are together though?

Sorry for the long post, but a lot has been going on and I want to give you as much info as possible.

Thanks for caring.

[confusedinpa]

She called me today and left a message as I was in a meeting. It was mostly tactical but she did say that I could call her if I wanted to. I still haven't called her back as I really don't have anything to say. She did wind up mentioning an open house for a pgram our kids are in where they will be having ice cream sundaes. I couldn't tell if she was asking if we were going to go, nor if I could tell if she wanted to go as well

I do have a lunch planned with one of my friends today so that will keep me distracted from calling her. Ironically I had helped my friend when she was having problems with her marriage. Now she's doing the same for me. My wife had found out I was talking with her and had acted almost jealous. She had done that a few times I had gone out with friends.

That actually happended a couple of weeks ago as well. I had a business dinner ironically on Cinco de Mayo. we didn't know that was the day nor did the resturant we went to even served alcohol. She called while I was out so I could say goodnite to the boys. I did and when she started chatting with me afterwards, I said I had to get going after she talked for a few minutes. She asked if she could call me later. I said she could if she wanted to. She text me later that nite and called as well. I didn't answer. She did call me the next morning and asked what time I got home and was agitated I was home late

Very odd in my mind

[Coach]

That whole post was about your W. I just don't think you get it. Your posts haven't changed since you got here. Go back and count how many times you used "she" and "her." Even your GAL moments revolve around your W. Focus on yourself. What is CIPA doing to make himself the best CIPA?
I understand that you want to know what's going on, you want to see if she is noticing, you want to fix it and you are hurting. I haven't seen any movement in your sitch and I think it is because you haven't tried something different. I don't see you working on the things she is running from. Sure your W has issues but you only control yourself. You can handle it but you have to know how. Go back and read Sandi - there's some of the how.
Cheers

[Puppy Dog Tails]

That whole post was about your W. I just don't think you get it. Your posts haven't changed since you got here. Go back and count how many times you used "she" and "her." Even your GAL moments revolve around your W. Focus on yourself. What is CIPA doing to make himself the best CIPA?
I understand that you want to know what's going on, you want to see if she is noticing, you want to fix it and you are hurting. I haven't seen any movement in your sitch and I think it is because you haven't tried something different. I don't see you working on the things she is running from. Sure your W has issues but you only control yourself. You can handle it but you have to know how. Go back and read Sandi - there's some of the how.
Cheers

I was thinking the same thing.

[The Wifey]

CIPA,

Don't just read Sandi - read the posts in the WA forum. You really want to help yourself? Read and understand the WHY. Then look deep into the mirror and take 1 step to change.

Work on you, GAL, spend time with your boys. I wouldn't stop the family time, or the talking, but let her do the leading. Its a little like a dance.

One other thing. I cringed when you talked about your "friend." Listen, one of the most dangerous pitfalls is to listen to EVERY opinion and twist in the wind based on the very latest advice or opinion. You need to distance yourself a bit from this friend. She means well, but she is twice divorced. How much help do you really think she will be?

Listen, read and watch. Hang back. Talk less and listen more. Focus on you, focus on being her friend, but do not think there is a magic bullet that puts you through the finish line. This is a long marathon, not a sprint.

Impatience can be worked through. Do it by keeping busy. You will have your down days, but do not let her know. You can be serene, calm, upbeat and a calm port in the storm.

It hurts, but the things that don't kill us make us better and stronger. And, from my read, your W is quoting the WA script and you actually have more to be hopeful for than you know. EVERY interaction can help or hurt. Always work to keep yourself under control. It helps to anticipate & plan for the interactions.

For me, I would actually make a list in writing of things that I could talk about with my H that were not R related. Something interesting I saw, things our mutual friends were up to, what our son did, the weather, fishing, whatever.

H wants to be my friend so I am trying to be the best friend he has.

And, when he isn't around, he really wonders what I've been up to because I am just so content and happy he can't stand it. And man have I been busy. Incidentally, I think I hear the wide mouth bass calling.

[cire2]

MY GOSH!!

As Sandi said, long winded.

You are trying to guilt your W into interactions with you if you're acting like this often.
Damn it! Let her miss you. I wouldn't have even asked about her going with you and the kids to the carnival. Something you'll never know is what kind of impact it would have had on her knowing her kids had a great time with Dad!

She told you she was cramping- do you need a billboard to tell you that the emotions were rolling? Perfect time for her to see consequences. But...

Quit pursueing and I say this from a whole host of experience with more than one.

Ignore her for a while, and listen to Sandi she's been where your W is at.

[confusedinpa]

I haven't seen any movement in your sitch and I think it is because you haven't tried something different. I don't see you working on the things she is running from. Sure your W has issues but you only control yourself. You can handle it but you have to know how. Go back and read Sandi - there's some of the how.
Cheers

Coach

Thanks for offering your insight and clarity again. I know my density can be very frustrating (just ask my wife).

My wife says she is running because she is tired of being hurt by my neglectful and controlling behavior. I made her feel disrespected and unimportant as a partner in this marriage.
I understand how the things that I did and said made her feel that way. I had forced us into a very family centric type of "lifestyle" where things were not ok if the 4 of us was not together being a family. I understand now that in order to have a healthy relationship, each of us needs to be 100%. This means not just having a relationship with each other as a family, but with friends, community and as an individual.

I've tried to change all that in my 180. I've gone out with friends and didn't get upset when she would want go have her own time (whether with friends or just alone time to get her nails/hair done). Since she moved out, I've continued to work on me when I don't have the kids. I go to church to work on my relationship with God and help me individually. I've also joined a small group at church to develop relationships with the community and new friends. I've volunteered to coach my 7 year old's soccer team. I've reconnected with many of my old friends (most are out of town - closest is 100 miles away) and we chat regular. Part of my getting a life is that I will visit one of them at least once/quarter. I've reconnected with some local friends and I've tried to go out with them once every two weeks. I've continued to go to the gym about twice/week (lost 25 lbs since the bomb). I've also continued my individual counseling to understand myself and my own issues better.

So I have been working on myself. I don't post about it very often as that is not what confuses me.

What does confuse me is my WAW. That's why mostly what I post is about my WAW. I know I've backslid this past 7 days. The call last Friday set off some potential hope that I had all but given up on finding. I know I've gone overboard and appreciate everyone's comments/advice and 2x4's.

I am listening. Thanks

[The Wifey]

You will make progress if you accept you are confused about your W, and that you can not figure it out right now. It isn't necessary to give up hope, just keep it in check. Don't act like my dog that can get excited at the least little sound of my voice. If you see a positive, calmly make note of the positive, but don't go overboard with the reaction.