Oh, H just texted regarding some possible money coming in and about still being mad at my sis and something about it is NOT a MLC and it is too easy for her to say that. I didn't see any reference to that in email but maybe they are still going at it...anyway, I am just going to say "thanks, keep me posted" (regarding $$)...no need to get into the MLC conversation...let him spin on that on his own. LOL
Every interaction is such a challenge. But, I do feel like I am building my woman muscles...
I tend to find WAS's do not like diagnosis from anyone. Lose the "MLC" labels since they're meaningless anyhow. All that matters is your WAS is a WAS for now. you can HOPE it's MLC b/c they have a slightly higher chance of coming back IF their behavior is truly out of character, as opposed to simply the culmination of years of self centeredness. YOUR behavior and reactions are the same regardless. But diagnosing them makes them wrong or sick. They won't like that at all. Least of all coming from an LBSer or family member of one. (My h told me once he had seen someone about maybe getting a work up and that told me that even he knew he was acting a bit off. His bf asked him WTH he was doing and things like the bills NOT getting paid on time were totally new and different for him. But there were also some things that were selfish about his career, (doctor) that are more or less accepted b/c they work so hard and help others, etc.) Just know that since YOU have to behave the same regardless, GAL, DB, PMA, etc, don't obsess too much about it. Even MLCers sometimes, in fact more often than not, do NOT come back.
As for the sister discussions---tough. You're not responsible for what your sister tells your h. Stay out of it. If she asks you then tell her not to speak for you.
RE: God and no religion...well, I am not comfortable with evangelicals, truthfully. And sometimes there gets to be too much from the bible on this site for me as I hear religion used to "accuse" or condemn and I think to myself, "does that ever work in getting a WAS to return?" (I doubt it). And I can't quote much scripture or anything. But yes, my higher power got me through this and I have no idea how anyone gets through this without Leaning hard on "Him/Her/It", etc. Seems to me that a loving R with God, FORGIVENESS skills come from Him and that helps the WAS feel more likely that the LBSer will be able to move forward. IT does take grace, if you will. In other words, let God strengthen you and bring you joy and love. Attached at the bottom of this is something I wrote a while ago that helped some people and might help you. Feel free to ignore it if it's too preachy though. It comes from a good place but I know a lot of people have major baggage about organized religion. I did too. Oh, My ex bil who left my sister years ago told me and her to our faces, he no longer believes in God and has been "atheist for some time now" and I just said, "it shows." I mean, why'd he feel we needed to know that? How odd... I think he wanted to hurt her or explain himself or disarm her as if she'd ever condemn him, (she never did anything like that to him). Who knows? Who cares? He's miserable now anyhow. And he used to use religion to make others wrong, and him right, and now he abandons it AND denies OURS, so he can justify his actions...yeah, big surprise he doesn't go to Mass anymore...oh, but HE DID regret leaving her and told her so. Just too late. She's so much happier now. Honestly I knew when her ex was leaving that as sad as she was, in the long run my other sisters and I KNEW she'd eventually be happier. And she is.
ANYWAY...okay I'm still not clear AK's L relative thing. Are you saying that the L is going to "talk to your H" and that will show h whatever he's facing and then what? He'll come back? Or he'll be convinced just to pay up and you won't have to spend much on attorneys? I mean if you take into account the future earnings and H pays you the right amount....and college for kids and custody is agreed upon and blah blah blah....all I know is I've seen 40 "do it yourself divorces" and one worked, with no kids and no property and a m of one year. Your sitch could be more complicated. Already is.
I can see a session with your relative being worth a go EXCEPT you might think that is like retaining one for you AND it's not. IF you think a session is worth it, sure go ahead as long as you KNOW you can count on your relative to be on your side. AND I don't know if you can if he's the type who finds women weak and indecisive.
Sorry if that hurts. But it IS what you are conveying, fyi. Big time.
Past going dark and then quitting---STILL NOT CLEAR on your reasons....Still don't know why it hurt you to "reject" him if going dark was working...what? HE IS REJECTING YOU....did you miss that? Was it just so hard b/c you just missed him so much? ooooookkkkkkaaaaayyyyyy Yes honey, that is weak. You are stronger than that.
Anyhow, gotta go and will talk to you later but you ARE making forward progress b/c sometimes all this is about is forward motion of some sort....keep it up. When you obsess and obsess about why why why this is all happening, stop. I was at a kid's with cancer camp years ago. A little girl with a recurrent form of cancer was there. 10 y/o. She said, "I used to ask God 'why me, God?" Why? Why? Why?' Then I just figured I'm sick cuz I just am. So I stopped asking b/c it's important to try and have fun while I can..." She had a great summer, and it was her last one. She was a wise old soul, wasn't she? ((( j )))
Seeing Our Spouses There comes a time in every marriage when each spouse sees the other in total stark reality, without the passion of the new, and sees them totally naked, with all their flaws, weaknesses, qualities, strengths, quirks, warts and all, and in that time, they make a choice. They may reject their spouse as simply too flawed, no faults of importance or given any weight allowed, only minor ones. Those spouses choose to leave. Others choose to stay, but only to make the other one cave in to their will, to nag, cajole, critisize, and "be proven RIGHT" until one of them finally dies...and some choose to stay, but sigh for their whole lives, rolling their eyes in the long suffering manner of the martyrs they see themselves as.
And then, there are others. There are those who see the realities of their spouse along with their own many faults in stark light too. Somehow they see it all and yet, still, they choose to love. They choose to focus on the good, and to compliment it, and strongly favor it. As for the bad, and not so good, they learn to compensate, overlook, accept, or work around....they try hard to do what is the goal; to see their spouses as God sees them. Through His eyes... Seems terribly difficult, but not complicated. In fact, it is very simple. But evidently quite rare. And no, I don't think this means we "learn" to accept what is truly UNacceptable. God did not put us here to make us miserable. We are not here to be doormats. But still, we have a goal and I think that the goal of marital love probably is to learn to see someone for all of who they really are, including their histories and pain, through His eyes. That does not always mean one stays married to a spouse. Sometimes it means seeing them as they are, loving them and still leaving them, for there are others (children) to SEE and consider. But I think it sure helps. J-
(copyright protected)
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Talk about good advice. Sheesh. Clue-by-fours abound
Quote:
until much later, (after he wanted it to work and made that quite clear). Your h does not want to change
Yep, yep, yep! That's the key right there. The sooner you get that into your head and embrace it, the sooner you'll relax and move on with your own healing. You CANNOT change him. He can. He will eventually. May be a long long time. You won't help it be anything but longer until you realize that.
That statement really struck me. My WAS said something about how the MC really helped when talking a few days ago. She started out not wanting to go at all. I think until I read this, I wasn't ready to see it this way. Thanks for that 25 and AK (it is your thread after all.)
As for talking with family - let me just say that the less you say to them the better. Family can be a tough one and you make it very difficult for the two of you to reconcile at some future point if your family hates him. Tell your children the same thing you tell the family - Daddy and mommy (H and I) are working on some issues in our relationship right now. Yes we are separated but we are actively trying to work on our relationship because neither of us wants to get divorced.
Or something along those lines. You're good with words - smith it
You're working through this quite well AK. You are still bound by fear, but you are quickly working on it. 25 and I see the same when it comes to the finances. But let me put it another way - if he earns the money and you have to ask him for it, then you will forever be anxious about it. That will get between the two of you. You will be in fear. If you let him handle it, you may have to collect on his life insurance when he has that heart attack, but it will be in the control of the one that has that control. He will have to learn to deal with it and it's high time he does. (I doubt seriously he'll have a heart attack over it. Just illustrating the point and showing that I'm listening to you
AJ
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK Put the glass down... "Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
Gulp...those last 2 paragraghs were so beautiful. Not too preachy for me.
I NEVER mentioned MLC to H. His behavior is like a super-sized version of his most insecure and egomaniacal self (IMO- may not be true). Anyway, I don't even know where that came from. I don't assess him or analyze him (anymore). I think I'm better at this than I may let on.
The rejection thing is not so much that I miss him but that I feel guilty and I love him and I want him to feel loved in the way everyone deserves to be loved. Yes, he is hurting me and I feel rejected but there's no point in an eye for an eye. I do not however think I should take that route any longer, just letting you know why it is painful. Also, I thought it had worked and brought him back in, which it did in many ways, just too much too soon. He does not consciously want to work on R, just go with the feelings. The feelings led him to come around more, feel safer with me, spend more family time, be more reliable in little but important ways (seriously)...so, the illusion that it was "working" to be more flexible and reconnect was at play.
I did tell my sister that I don't want her to get involved but, again, I need to stop exhibiting that I am drowning and need saving. My family is so worried and so devastated. If I stop dragging them into the drama, they wont feel the need to involve themselves on my behalf.
Yikes, the cancer thing is not a good topic. I've lost people to it. AND, it infuriates me that we are poisoning ourselves as a society and then wonder why so many are getting cancer...a bit off topic and I do think the child's attitude is touching but in reality, there are reasons why children are getting cancer and someone needs to take that on and do something about it. Anyhoo, not the point, I know but it shows you how my mind works. I don't feel like "why me?" No way, I feel like "what do I learn from this?" and "how the heck do I turn this around?"
H believes and then doesn't believe. He is so confused (by his own admission) and he truly does need to find himself, as do I. In that way, I know this is necessary. He is so impressionable and relies on the outside to define him. And we did that to each other. We need space and time to really develop autonomous selves. I wish it had happened prior to having kids but c'est la vie. AND, I do think we could do it within the marriage IF, if, if...blah, blah, blah...yep, getting tired of hearing myself.
Ok, the L. I believe he could help us make some decisions regarding the debt and perhaps a legal sep agreement to start. He is savvy enough to know his limitations. I have to take this one step at a time. I have ONLY seen lawyers make these things worse and contentious and suck out money that isn't even there just to get to a point that any decent lawyer could have predicted they would get to. Maybe it is fantasy but I think we could come to any agreement co-operatively. If not, then so be it and we get our own reps. I want to hone in on this, I am not taking your input for granted, I am just not ready to file for D or to retain attorneys etc. I would prefer mediation over that. It is not just about D, it is about $$$ going down the drain and everyone losing.
Also, if we can declare bankruptcy or deal with the debt in some fashion, that will make it a cleaner arrangement regarding assets and alimony/child support etc.
Can't these arrangements always be revised if he makes significantly more money? Couldn't I retain a L at that point and ask for more? My L seemed to suggest that is the case.
H said that our work with Imago therapist helped and subsequent exercises but didn't want to continue because...x, y, z. Without the intention to salvage the R, I think it is hard to sustain the changes because it is actually working against what S wants...make sense? Still, it did help and illuminate and defuse some of his hostility.
"Yes we are separated but we are actively trying to work on our relationship because neither of us wants to get divorced." Kids aren't thinking D so I'm going to avoid that and we are not actively working on our R, BUT, I get the gist and I think the kids get that, for now, we are taking some space and working on ourselves (still hate the example it sets that "working on ourselves" means H shmoozing every night but what do I know? That is his path)...
As for the bills, I'm confused. I get from 25 that I need to take more extreme action. I am trying to figure out what that action will be. Having him in control of the finances doesn't assuage my anxiety (originally I took over paying them because he wasn't)...thinking, thinking...
Ummm...can someone please tell me why H keeps filling me in on the exciting things happening.
It FEELS like I am THAT person that he can share them with. Only I know what they mean to him. But, I don't know what to do with it...just be cordial. Usually I just say "cool," "awesome," etc. I wish I could be more specific on here but certain sort of "fantastical" things happening and people he's connecting with that he dreamed of as a kid...I'm happy for him but weird and anticlimactic for me. I guess. Maybe I should just stop giving a cr*p. RIGHT!!!!
It is ME that is spinning EVERY flippin time he texts..."work on me, work on me..."
Want to clarify something 25, H does not talk to me about other women (before he left he told me he had been eyeing other women and it made him feel the R was in trouble and he told me frequently about other women coming on to him as a "cry for help"), but, since then if he mentions a woman, he will be sure to clarify that it is just a "friend" or he was with a group of people or...I would NOT listen to him talk about frolicking with women on an island or getting action so to speak. I would hang up or tell him to get out. He is a bit crass and has a juvenile sense of humor but he has made a concerted effort to avoid implying that there is/are other woman/women.
Mind you, I DON'T think this has anything to do with whether or not there is someone or more than one...it means, he doesn't want to be that guy, he doesn't want to see me hurt (in that way), and he doesn't want me assuming that he left because of someone else. But, I do think there is someone or more than one and I think he left partially because he felt he was going to be unfaithful (he told me that last part).
My main point is, I would/will not subject myself to that kind of information (the women he is having sex with etc.)...I have my limits.
I totally disagree with your legal analysis. I AM A L and I hired one for MY sitch. I'd never dream I know more than the specialists do, even when I've graduated from law school and handled about 20 divorces for friends myself. I'd never hire the same one my h is and you are operating under some false assumptions. You distrust Lawyers so much and yet You say similar things about therapists, and I am wondering if there's some sort of issue you have with the ones who finished schooling or whatever..."penny wise and pound foolish" is ONE phrase that comes to mind. And you do a disservice to those who's expertise may seem to you to be "easy" but that's b/c you don't know what you don't know, no offense.
Just b/c my h can do a spinal cord implant in under 30 minutes does not mean it didn't take him 13 years of POST high school training (college, med school, internship and residency and fellowship) to learn how to do it safely. I can do a will & Trust in 15 minutes - thanks to the thousands I did in the First Gulf War,...and the years I went to school, and the cases I've seen where the wills withstood challenges, and the software available that makes it so I know what questions to ask. I had 34 people come in with "homemade wills" off the internet and NOT ONE of them passed probate. Just such a tragic and sad drag to tell a widow that her h is not just dead; he also left her nothing, since the will was done or executed incorrectly or incompletely...hope I'm making my point. (But think of the savings! He didn't have to hire a Lawyer! Hope I'm making my point.) Can't think of anything I'd rather save money on LESS, than medical care and the rights to my children and property...
Mediation is nice...AFTER YOU SPEAK TO A L WHO ONLY REPRESENTS YOU....I cannot fathom why you'd think mediation is the goal BEFORE getting a L. IN MY BOOK you figure out what your rights are first before you decide to start compromising which is what mediation is....which is fine....but geez...
Let the L tell you to work it out in mediation if you can. ALL the L's I know would tell you that, so unless you only know sleaze balls, I'd say your POV is skewed pretty negatively. Heck, MY L talked me out of fiiling for a div and suggested I file the SEP instead b/c she said SHE still had "hope for our M"! So my experience is so different than yours. I have liked every lawyer we've had to hire or consult with.
The times I've seen the L bills skyrocket are when husbands or wives call their L's to tell their spouses' L that for instance, the wife wants to switch days and refuses to call her h directly. Or the h wants to pay 5% less since he now takes the kids to church on Sundays so he has them 5% more of their waking hours and blah blah blah TRUE EXAMPLES....
It's a power struggle they put the L's into and the L's get to bill for it but MOST lawyers find it stupid and annoying. Real legal issues are interesting & worth arguing but crappy little things that any mature couple can work out SHOULD be worked out without a L. That is not the fault of the L's. And if a time comes when he makes more money, AND he does not hide it and he does not mismanage it b/c somehow he'll be all better about it then...sure you can go after more...but if the time comes and he has a new woman, don't expect to ever know what he earns, or what she earns, or what she tells him to justify keeping more of it. Your trust in him, particularly in view of his money phobia is confusing to me but then--
2nd thing--I'm very confused by you. You say wildly varying things about wth is going on in your sitch. Your h lives elsewhere, correct? he told your sister it's over and that he "tried", correct? He said he'd go to c FOR YOU, correct?
Now you say he is planning or willing to work on the R....???? WTH? Is this some sort of game?
Which is it? Is this just a vacation of his? He wants to stay M but only legally or only part time? If this IS a time out, and he's willing to work on the M, then why don't you just do that? What's to tell the kids? Why not just Give him space and see what happens and give yourself a time limit internally, (not to disclose to him b/c that's an ultimatum and you are not capable of enforcing one in my opinion at this time and the worst thing to do is to give an ultimatum and NOT back it up. It'll undermine you forever.) Also YOU said he asked for a rub down and a HJ but won't take you out anywhere and acts single on the outside...am I hallucinating? Didn't you tell us that somewhere here?
See, I could have sworn I read somewhere that he won't file himself but sees that you might...sometime....he wants out b/c he wants OW or has already or doesn't want to feel AS guilty (since we know he already feels guilty, as I thought he said that too, or maybe it was you mind reading) and he misses you guys but can't/won't go home b/c... then ....what? it'll be bad??...he can't promise or provide you a set amount of money each month, but nor does he want to see the bills... and he has a horrible track record financially (yet you think, somehow that seeing your relative L together THEN you guys can come up with some sort of financial plan that will HELP YOUR Position financially....what's so magic about the L seeing the two of you together? Like you are a team? You are not a team. If you were a team, this sitch would not exist. He's the player and you are the cheerleader. Do you think that someone else can fix all this and then it'll be fine??---
Yes your tangent about the 10 y/o was way off. You don't know her or me or the situation and you went off about how we cause kids' cancer....and you almost missed the entire point to make some odd point of your own... I think you probably want to tell me about how doctors and modern medicine created her cancer and if only she knew you, or some other secret thing that you know, then nothing bad would have happend to her and.... blah blah blah. No offense, but yes Bad things do happen to good people. Harold Kushner wrote a book called "When Bad Things Happen To Good People" you might want to read. No matter how controlling and frightened and careful and cautious and SAFELY you think you live your life, It's not all preventable and sometimes lousy things DO happen and the only thing we can do is cope with the cards we are dealt. This explains a bit about why you are still going around the same loop in your head. You cannot believe that this is happening TO YOU...been there, done that. IT IS WHAT IT IS...There are no time machines to get a re-do, so you cannot get a guarantee your h won't do this again (like he can't get a guarantee you won't still manipulate for outcome control OR hold this over his head Or punish him or withdraw or whatever or die...) or that you'll always be healthy and etc. You have to face reality and move forward. I guess I'm a tad offended b/c you are so paranoid and suspicious that you refuse good advice b/c you think your fears mean you know more. But they just mean you are more fearful.
You ONLY control your reaction and so far you are still so fear based on things... that your choices have not been good ones. Don't know what else to say. I want to help you but you have to change/help yourself and what I see over and over are requests for tips on how to deal with your h and the situation. Not how to grow as a woman or spiritual person or mother etc. What you want are tactics, not changes.
Those won't work. And for the record, you may write a lot but I am still so unclear about your explanation for why you stopped going dark when it got him to change the way he treated you. Are you saying that HIS "discomfort", hurt him or meant he was sad, and therefore you stopped going dark, and you are now instead choosing to tolerate crappy behavior from him, which YOU have admitted is intolerable? And do you believe that is good for YOU? Do you believe it is good for him? Do you believe he'll look back on how he mistreated you, and feel proud of himself? If you had stayed dark and just coped with HIS discomfort, he might have grown.
Why does that terrify you more than what you have now?
(( j ))
Last edited by 25yearsmlc; 05/21/0902:00 AM.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I totally disagree with your legal analysis. I AM A L and I hired one for MY sitch. I'd never dream I know more than the specialists do, even when I've graduated from law school and handled about 20 divorces for friends myself. I'd never hire the same one my h is and you are operating under some false assumptions. You distrust Lawyers so much and yet You say similar things about therapists, and I am wondering if there's some sort of issue you have with the ones who finished schooling or whatever..."penny wise and pound foolish" is ONE phrase that comes to mind. And you do a disservice to those who's expertise may seem to you to be "easy" but that's b/c you don't know what you don't know, no offense.
Whoa. I went to the best D attorney I know who happens to be a relative and I'm telling you what he advised me. That is not the end of story or never retain him or other lawyer...it is what he advised me after some 40+ years in practice. How am I assuming I know so much?? I am leaned toward following his advice because he is in the flesh super-experienced D lawyer who has offered to help. I value your insight as well so we are having a conversation about which way to go and what to do when. I don't think I know better than you, I think I am trying to figure this out.
Just b/c my h can do a spinal cord implant in under 30 minutes does not mean it didn't take him 13 years of POST high school training (college, med school, internship and residency and fellowship) to learn how to do it safely. I can do a will & Trust in 15 minutes - thanks to the thousands I did in the First Gulf War,...and the years I went to school, and the cases I've seen where the wills withstood challenges, and the software available that makes it so I know what questions to ask. I had 34 people come in with "homemade wills" off the internet and NOT ONE of them passed probate. Just such a tragic and sad drag to tell a widow that her h is not just dead; he also left her nothing, since the will was done or executed incorrectly or incompletely...hope I'm making my point. (But think of the savings! He didn't have to hire a Lawyer! Hope I'm making my point.) Can't think of anything I'd rather save money on LESS, than medical care and the rights to my children and property...
Mediation is nice...AFTER YOU SPEAK TO A L WHO ONLY REPRESENTS YOU....I cannot fathom why you'd think mediation is the goal BEFORE getting a L. IN MY BOOK you figure out what your rights are first before you decide to start compromising which is what mediation is....which is fine....but geez...
I have NO clue about whether mediation would make sense. I read about it and have wondered if it could help at least preliminarily to clean up debt and make some agreements but ok, no. You know, I read all kinds of stuff and some people seem to be using mediators more and having decent outcomes. Not sure why that is so inflammatory as I am looking at my options and you know I am tentative about D.
Let the L tell you to work it out in mediation if you can. ALL the L's I know would tell you that, so unless you only know sleaze balls, I'd say your POV is skewed pretty negatively. Heck, MY L talked me out of fiiling for a div and suggested I file the SEP instead b/c she said SHE still had "hope for our M"! So my experience is so different than yours. I have liked every lawyer we've had to hire or consult with.
The times I've seen the L bills skyrocket are when husbands or wives call their L's to tell their spouses' L that for instance, the wife wants to switch days and refuses to call her h directly. Or the h wants to pay 5% less since he now takes the kids to church on Sundays so he has them 5% more of their waking hours and blah blah blah TRUE EXAMPLES....
It's a power struggle they put the L's into and the L's get to bill for it but MOST lawyers find it stupid and annoying. Real legal issues are interesting & worth arguing but crappy little things that any mature couple can work out SHOULD be worked out without a L. That is not the fault of the L's. And if a time comes when he makes more money, AND he does not hide it and he does not mismanage it b/c somehow he'll be all better about it then...sure you can go after more...but if the time comes and he has a new woman, don't expect to ever know what he earns, or what she earns, or what she tells him to justify keeping more of it. Your trust in him, particularly in view of his money phobia is confusing to me but then--
This was not what I witnessed. Close friend had L advise her she would likely get WAY more than was possible and the two lawyers haggled over peanuts. Likewise, friends with major money spent $150,000, no kids, wife got not a whole lot and that was big time lawyers. My sis is a L and I love her AND, the name of the game is $$ so yes, I am nervous about it. BUT, just because I am nervous doesn't mean I'm not listening. I'm hanging on your words.
2nd thing--I'm very confused by you. You say wildly varying things about wth is going on in your sitch. Your h lives elsewhere, correct? he told your sister it's over and that he "tried", correct? He said he'd go to c FOR YOU, correct?
Now you say he is planning or willing to work on the R....???? WTH? Is this some sort of game? No. AJ said I should tell that to the kids (that we are working on R) and I said I could not tell them that because it is not true...I have been consistent, for now, H says it is over. Misunderstanding. I will say it again, he says he is done. But he still has expressed doubt and ambivalence and I've watched him spin about marriage and whether people are meant to be monogamous and honestly, he comes off as disillusioned, confused and grasping. He is surrounded by people who either don't care about M, want out but don't leave, cheat etc. I can't mind read but I can tell you that he talks about other people's sitches a lot and seems to be looking for signs. No one modeled for him in any way how to be a husband and father or why it might be worth sticking it out. He has taken a duffle bag to a friend's house and is traveling. All of his stuff is still here including his office. So, no, he is not completely out and once he has to leave this friend's house, I don't know where he'll go with no $$.
Which is it? Is this just a vacation of his? He wants to stay M but only legally or only part time? If this IS a time out, and he's willing to work on the M, then why don't you just do that? What's to tell the kids? Why not just Give him space and see what happens and give yourself a time limit internally, (not to disclose to him b/c that's an ultimatum and you are not capable of enforcing one in my opinion at this time and the worst thing to do is to give an ultimatum and NOT back it up. It'll undermine you forever.)Don't know and have been trying to ascertain and just lay low and be as cool as possible, however, SOME of his behavior has been erratic and loopy and the bills are mounting so I must take actions to deal with those issues. I am confused myself. Also YOU said he asked for a rub down and a HJ but won't take you out anywhere and acts single on the outside...am I hallucinating? Didn't you tell us that somewhere here?
Above is true. My point was that in our communication, he has gone out of his way to avoid any specifics and despite his not wearing his ring and expressing that we are not together, he seems to always want to diffuse any sense that I have that he is with other women sexually. I need to think about this and why I am so certain he sees himself as available...he has made references to me having given him permission to date to which I responded that it torments me to think about but he is in charge of his own behavior...maybe I was too vague. If he is out, I don't feel I am entitled to tell him what to do. I did tell him I do not want to be intimate with him if he is with other people and he said he wasn't but I don't know and feel naive believing that.
See, I could have sworn I read somewhere that he won't file himself but sees that you might...sometime....he wants out b/c he wants OW or has already or doesn't want to feel AS guilty (since we know he already feels guilty, as I thought he said that too, or maybe it was you mind reading) and he misses you guys but can't/won't go home b/c... then ....what? it'll be bad??...Truth is 25, I have been trying to figure it out. Something happened, something changed and pushed him over the edge. Looking back through our emails, I see that I DID do much of what I'm doing now by way of encouragement. BUT, and this is a major item I have left out, we have moved numerous times and went through a traumatic situation financially not too long ago and we lost our footing. I was the "we can get through this" girl, BUT, he was depressed, angry, blamed me. And my attempts to point out how desperately we needed to deal with the finances registered as he was never enough. No matter how I phrased it. We moved this last fall and I think that was part of it. I can see in the emails that I was struggling to make my biz work and was so stressed about $ and he was trying so hard and we weren't cutting it and we kept missing eachother's attempts to connect. The stress killed this R. Of course there are matters of character involved but overall, he just couldn't handle the pressure anymore. And now, I think I'm being different because I'm nice but he is still getting the same message (now from sis and of course from me just asking for more money) that he isn't cutting it. We were like two children with no real modeling trying to get on top of all of it. The debts were mounting and he started leaving town more and more and being more provocative. He saw this environment depressing him (his words) and killing him and he needed to get out or die. And now, he is just fighting and clawing for the brass ring so he can make it all better and achieve his dreams before it is too late. And, there is a possibility (he has said that he knows he may regret this one day), that he is just taking a gamble and if he can keep me cool and keep running, it'll all work out. As you said though, there would probably be a new flashier lady in that scenario but who knows? One of his big complaints was that I wouldn't come out more with him and have fun and while I regret that, I felt the ship was sinking and would go out once in a while but no money for babysitters and I was depressed. His tactic when depressed is go into Lalaland and perhaps shmooze his way out of it, mine was hanker down and try to come up with solutions. Neither was working too well.he can't promise or provide you a set amount of money each month, but nor does he want to see the bills Well, he made an agreement, it was just one he can't afford to keep unless he truly deprives himself. Our expenses are too high. So, in the face of his failure as family guy and mine as wife, he bailed and will settle for being a decent dad.... and he has a horrible track record financially (yet you think, somehow that seeing your relative L together THEN you guys can come up with some sort of financial plan that will HELP YOUR Position financially....what's so magic about the L seeing the two of you together? Like you are a team? You are not a team. If you were a team, this sitch would not exist. He's the player and you are the cheerleader. Do you think that someone else can fix all this and then it'll be fine??Nope. Just see that this could be a cart before the horse sitch and that the financial issue being so huge a factor, it could be wise to try to get a handle, whatever that may be, bankruptcy, whatever. I chose to see this as a watch what he does not what he says for the most part and I see that this money stress is a killer and he is running and hoping that a different direction will lead to the pot of gold because this sure wasn't doing it for him.---
Ok, I don't see him filing. Last we discussed it, I was saying that this R will not be like this if we D, we will not be buddies, we wont hang out and we wont have the kind of family time or communication we've been having. I said "you need to do some serious soul searching." He said "I know. That is why I haven't filed anything." Yes, he has said he feels guilty, about his birthday party I threw him last year, our anniversary, he apologized for not being a better husband (once or twice)...I have to think back on why else I think he feels guilty, perhaps it is more burdened and responsible. I don't want to mind read anymore so I am going to think more about this before extrapolating. Oh, just remembered I said, "don't you think that the debt and the finances are a lot of what you are running away from?" and he said "yes" and I said "wouldn't it be sad if we tore our family apart over that? And that was when he said, "I know. That is why I haven't filed anything."
The L was going to see HIM and go over I/E document and explain how it works to him. I don't know where we would go from there. I am totally open to your suggestions. I am confused and trying to sort it out.
Yes your tangent about the 10 y/o was way off. You don't know her or me or the situation and you went off about how we cause kids' cancer....and you almost missed the entire point to make some odd point of your own... I think you probably want to tell me about how doctors and modern medicine created her cancer and if only she knew you, or some other secret thing that you know, then nothing bad would have happend to her and.... blah blah blah. No offense, but yes Bad things do happen to good people. Harold Kushner wrote a book called "When Bad Things Happen To Good People" you might want to read. No matter how controlling and frightened and careful and cautious and SAFELY you think you live your life, It's not all preventable and sometimes lousy things DO happen and the only thing we can do is cope with the cards we are dealt. This explains a bit about why you are still going around the same loop in your head. You cannot believe that this is happening TO YOU...been there, done that. IT IS WHAT IT IS...There are no time machines to get a re-do, so you cannot get a guarantee your h won't do this again (like he can't get a guarantee you won't still manipulate for outcome control OR hold this over his head Or punish him or withdraw or whatever or die...) or that you'll always be healthy and etc. You have to face reality and move forward. I guess I'm a tad offended b/c you are so paranoid and suspicious that you refuse good advice b/c you think your fears mean you know more. But they just mean you are more fearful.
I apologize for offending you. I've experienced loss of life to cancer of people very close to me and it was horrific. In my line of work (biz), part of it entails research and I there are excessive amounts of carcinogens in the products, food, environment. Of course there is a genetic component and I don't think there is much I can do about it. It is a hot button for me because you have cosmetic companies researching a cure and in the meantime they sell products KNOWN to cause cancer and most are banned in the EU. The why is extremely important...Anyway, I see my sitch differently, I don't think this qualifies as a "bad thing happening to a good person," I think I chose H and have co-created this sitch. Maybe, I need to read the book again. It was given to me when Bio-dad died and of course, I was relatively helpless in that sitch.
You ONLY control your reaction and so far you are still so fear based on things... that your choices have not been good ones. Don't know what else to say. I want to help you but you have to change/help yourself and what I see over and over are requests for tips on how to deal with your h and the situation. Not how to grow as a woman or spiritual person or mother etc. What you want are tactics, not changes.
Yep. I agree. And I am seeing that clearly.
Those won't work. And for the record, you may write a lot but I am still so unclear about your explanation for why you stopped going dark when it got him to change the way he treated you. Are you saying that HIS "discomfort", hurt him or meant he was sad, and therefore you stopped going dark, and you are now instead choosing to tolerate crappy behavior from him, which YOU have admitted is intolerable? And do you believe that is good for YOU? Do you believe it is good for him? Do you believe he'll look back on how he mistreated you, and feel proud of himself? If you had stayed dark and just coped with HIS discomfort, he might have grown.
I've been thinking more about this too. After he went into my emails, I think I caved because I was so exposed and ended up explaining every little thing because he was making so many assumptions that were not true and really I did not want him running off about them. And, he wanted me and I wanted to think it could be that easy, that I opened the door a little and that he was coming in more and more and I was posting here and there was some debate as to whether I might be getting somewhere with it (though Sandi thought I should ditch him asap). If I had this clarity as to what was "working" I would have gotten back on track. It was my definition of working that was off. I just wanted him to have as many opportunities to experience me differently as possible. I still don't know what working is in this sitch.
Why does that terrify you more than what you have now?
Thinking about this more before I answer. Kind of the whole kit and kaboodle. (( j ))
If I want any chance of saving my marriage and my sanity, I think I need a JOB that pays enough to make a difference and I need it ASAP. The kids will survive. I can say I wish I had done it sooner but I did my best. Was working on my biz and had a part time job that paid me extra well (because it was a friend who knew what I was capable of) but that was short-lived because of revenue loss due to economy. I can't beat myself up but I need to find something and I am trying. I also have ALL duties related to kids while he is out of town and 90% when he is in town so I've got to work around that. The thing I guess I thought L would do would be to show H in stark numbers what will happen in D and how much money we are making versus spending and get the ball rolling on taking A direction whether bankruptcy or legal agreement or moving, something to get us out of catatonia and denial.
25- In case my tone was lacking in humility and graciousness, I want to tell you, I am utterly moved and grateful that you are taking your time to help me. If you think you're confused...well, welcome to my brain.
I have thought that I should just let H spin and sit back and do my own thing. BUT, I have all of those lovely insecurities that we've highlighted here and if feels like life or death...
I feel like this is getting somewhere and you are getting a clearer picture and I am too.
I can take the 2x4s AND, I am sensitive and I am trying to digest all of this.
