One Last Chance to Make it Real

[DanceQueen]

Puppy - because I also could have written this myself (from her letter to you:)

"I have NEVER had time to find out who (wife's first name) really is. I was, (wife's first name), the daughter who lived at home, to becoming, (wife's first name) the wife, and then (wife's first name) the mother. I missed going away to college and living on my own and learning what it's like to just be "me". I feel like that is the part that causes my restless nature. It has nothing to do with not loving you, but everything to do with trying to find myself. When kids go away to school, they really learn what they are made of and learn so many of life's lessons. It helps them to grow and become the person they are to be someday. It teaches them confidence. When they are finally ready to comitt to someone in marriage, they are truly ready to give up the single life and live alongside someone. I wish so bad that I had gone away when I was younger, or lived by myself for awhile. Maybe it wouldn't be coming back to haunt me now. Although divorce was scarey, I have to admit that I was looking forward to being a single person so that I could experience what I didn't when I was younger (and I was also sad because I didn't want to be away from you and at times the kids). I'm totally letting things all out to you here, so I hope you don't take it personally or get upset by what I say in this email. (Puppy), what scares the hell out of me, is that while I do love you, and I love our family and don't want to split up the family, I honestly don't know if I will ever NOT feel like this. If I don't have the "experience" I missed long ago, and never truly find out who I am, will I ever feel content and happy? Or will this feeling just continue to creep in and once again show its ugly head? Maybe a counselor can help me to get a handle on these feelings, I don't know."

I also never had a way to find out who I really was. I went from home to marital home and kids - - no in between time for DQ to play with her feelings, emotions, body, nothing. I basically remained an emotional teenager for the first 10 years of my marriage because the marriage froze my personal development. I instead DID develop into a pretty good mother and friend and employee...but not a sexual person nor even just a well-balanced individual.

There is intimacy that come from being in a family and having children, and because I lacked the maturity needed to explore sexual intimacy, instead I immersed myself in the family intimacy and parental intimacy. And since I felt so full of intimacy, my sexual urges were very tempered. They WERE THERE though. They just did not really feel comfortable to me because all I could do and be was young mom....not hot, wild, sexually free single woman. Having never had those experiences really stunted my growth.

When I started making noises about being unhappy in my marriage, was when I my personal development was seeking expresssion...and to ME at that time, what that felt like was that I wanted to be single and free to be sexual on terms OTHER THAN those that my husband set out for me. That is what it FELT LIKE to me, but I now understand I could have explored this sexuality with him within my marriage. Unfortunately, as I described above, he just figured I wanted to be a slut and f*cks lots of guys and that I was morally impaired. Want to know a secret though? I didn't actually want to f*ck a lot of guys, I wanted to go on lots of DATES and do fun things that had nothing to do with being a mother!!! But going on those dates and having that fun MADE ME want to have sex. Because that is normal in the single world...you go on this great date, it stirs your desire, and then you have great sex! Those dates could have been with him.

We needed MC, so I'm really really glad you and your W will be going to MC. It may have saved our marriage and may have made our sex life live up to its full potential. Instead, he assumed he was right, I was wrong, and he watched me walk out the door.

In the quoted part of her email, she is baring her soul to you. She is admitting that her personal development has stopped because she doesn't feel she can grow as a person within the marriage, because she didn't get a chance to do it before getting married. She is afraid that will hurt your feelings and make you feel like she didn't want to marry you, which isn't what she's saying. She is saying that she didn't follow the proper order of her own development by getting married so young, and now she's paying the price for it.

DQ

[oldtimer]

Um, are you rewriting history? W approached you FIRST via email and was very open and vulnerable:

"[kid talk deleted...] I also told her that down the road we mentioned renewing our vows. She said that right now we should work on the relationship and the issues we have. If we are able to iron things out and make this work, then we can renew our vows. She said this would fall into the "giving false hope" category. She also said not to confuse "romance (the renewing of our vows), with working on our issues to try to save our marriage. This all makes a lot of sense to me.

I have to tell you that since we talked and got some things off our chests, that there was this feeling of relief. Since then suddenly reality has set in, and I've gotten fearful. I know this might not make sense to you, or maybe it does. E verytime we say we are going to try again. Then, it all goes back to the way it was when neither one of us was happy. But the time before we decide to try again, the stress of the mediator, etc., is so extremely stressful and sad, that I always say I could never go through it again, and yet we do. I'm scared, really scared. Can you understand how I feel? Maybe you feel the same. What are some of the feelings you have felt since we talked?"

You then replied in a pretty curt/shut down way. But then you replied again-- yes you did open yourself up in a very loving way, but you also threw around the morally heavy be a good wife/mother stuff pretty well too...

She then replied with another open and loving email. Related to your SL:

(Puppy),

REASSURANCE OF HER LOVE: First of all I have to tell you how much it meant to me to know how much you really love me. Through all of the garbage we've been through, sometimes it's easy to forget that part. I do feel the bond that you also feel. I guess that bond is what keeps us coming back to this. The bond that just won't allow us to call it quits. Yes, I think there is a little fear mixed in, but if we didn't love each other, there wouldn't be a bond at all.

DISCUSSION OF HER LACK OF SEXUAL IDENTITY AND INABILITY TO FIND IT IN THE WIFE/MOTHER ROLE AND HER FEAR OF GIVING UP THE POSSIBILITY OF EVER HAVING A HOT SEX LIFE BY GOING BACK TO THE WIFE/MOTHER ROLE: I want to explain the "fear' I said I have. We talked the other night at (restaurant), and we mentioned how I went from living with my parents to getting married and living with you. I have NEVER had time to find out who (wife's first name) really is. I was, (wife's first name), the daughter who lived at home, to becoming, (wife's first name) the wife, and then (wife's first name) the mother. I missed going away to college and living on my own and learning what it's like to just be "me". I feel like that is the part that causes my restless nature. [WANTING A HOT SEX LIFE] It has nothing to do with not loving you, but everything to do with trying to find myself. [WHICH I CAN'T DO SEXUALLY IN MY REPRESSED WIFE MOTHER ROLE] When kids go away to school, they really learn what they are made of and learn so many of life's lessons. It helps them to grow and become the person they are to be someday. It teaches them confidence. When they are finally ready to comitt to someone in marriage, they are truly ready to give up the single life and live alongside someone. I wish so bad that I had gone away when I was younger, or lived by myself for awhile. [I'M AFRAID I TOTALLY MISSED THE CHANCE TO DEVELOP A SEXUAL IDENTITY] Maybe it wouldn't be coming back to haunt me now. Although divorce was scarey, I have to admit that I was looking forward to being a single person so that I could experience what I didn't when I was younger (and I was also sad because I didn't want to be away from you and at times the kids). [I HATE THE IDEA OF GIVING UP WIFE/MOTHER BUT WAS LOOKING FORWARD TO SEXUAL FREEDOM] I'm totally letting things all out to you here [I'M BEING AS DIRECT AS I CAN AND IT SCARES ME], so I hope you don't take it personally or get upset by what I say in this email [PLEASE DON'T MAKE THIS ALL ABOUT YOUR MALE SEXUAL EGO]. (Puppy), what scares the hell out of me, is that while I do love you, and I love our family and don't want to split up the family, I honestly don't know if I will ever NOT feel like this. [I AM TERRIFIED THAT YOU AND I ARE SEXUALLY INCOMPATIBLE AND THAT YOU CAN NEVER BE THE LOVER I NEED TO HAVE A GREAT SEX LIFE] If I don't have the "experience" I missed long ago, and never truly find out who I am, will I ever feel content and happy? [I WON'T BE HAPPY WITHOUT A HOT SEX LIFE] Or will this feeling just continue to creep in and once again show its ugly head? [IS THERE ANY HOPE OF A HOT SEX LIFE WITH YOU IN THE FUTURE?] Maybe a counselor can help me to get a handle on these feelings, I don't know. [I'M TAKING ALL THE BLAME HERE TO PROTECT YOU.]

[kid stuff]

Regarding the renewal of vows. I have thought long and hard about it, and I personally would like to hold off on that. I just don't feel I'm emotionally ready to do that yet. Perhaps after I've met with a counselor I might feel different. But if we decide to do that, I want to feel 100% ready. That is not something I would take lightly. This doesn't mean I'm not committed to working on our marriage, because I am. I just don't feel that I'm ready for that step yet. [I DON'T KNOW IF WE CAN HAVE ANYTHING OTHER THAN A SSM AND I WON'T LIVE LIKE THAT ANYMORE] I also believe that before we even know if things are going to work out for us [SEX], renewing our vows would send a message that everything is great with the kids. I don't want to lead them along or god forbid crush them IF things don't work out between us. I hope you understand. I need to be in a better place emotionally before I can do that with all my heart. If things work out maybe we can renew our vows in connection with our 25th wedding anniversary. [I WANT THINGS TO WORK OUT, I HAVE AMAZING ROMANTIC THOUGHTS ABOUT US]

(Puppy), we've been together a long, long time. Every memory has us in it. It's not easy to give up on that which is probably why we haven't completely thrown in the towel. We are the best of friends, and I do enjoy being with you. I just hope and pray that we can fix this [NAMELY OUR SEX LIFE]. [PLEASE HELP ME MAKE THIS WORK--I AM TRYING TO REACH OUT TO YOU AND TELL YOU THAT I NEED TO BE A HOT SEXY DIRTY GIRL WHO HAS GREAT SEX AND ENJOYS IT AUTHENTICALLY BUT I REALLY WANT TO DO THAT WITH YOU]

[REASSURANCE]I love you, [I WANT TO CRAVE TO F YOU]
(Wife)

[Coach]

OT, Where can I find one of those "read between the lines secret de-coder rings?"
Could sell a bizzillion of those things.
Cheers

[iamlost]

Puppy,

First of all, let me say, I can't imagine how hurtful all those years of rejection from your W have been. My heart truly goes out to you, and I can understand your anger and wanting to classify her as abnormal in some way. Hell, all of us here do it. And she does have obvious psychological issues, but they don't sound narcissistic or shallow to me--the behavior you describe sounds more like deep insecurity. (I majored in psych as an undergrad, so I'm not talking totally out of my butt here. ) You say she can't empathize with you, but neither of you seem to be empathizing with each other much.

I have question--do you think you would have stayed and put up with your W if she wasn't as hot as she is? If the answer is yes, does she know that? And if the answer is no--don't you think she knows that and it terrifies her?

What do you love about your W, other than the way she looks? How do you support those things in her?

If you see her as the temptress, always in control because of the way she looks on the outside, I think there's a lot you're not seeing. Heck, her insecurity about her looks could be a factor in withdrawing from sex--she might be terrified that you will see her physical flaws, so she's overcome with anxiety and can't enjoy it, so she avoids it. The constant searches for anti-aging creams tell me that she is acutely aware of her flaws.

I think her need to maintain some kind of perfect beauty to maintain what she believes makes her valuable as a human being--that can take priority over you, your M, sex, everything. If she believes you love her primarily for the way she looks, then she may be actually trying to preserve your love for her by NOT having sex with you and showing you her flaws.

You said that "what worked" when you ML has been some kind of finality, some kind of ending. It would make sense that THAT would end her need to hide her flaws from you. She can be "free" temporarily from her insecurities about you seeing the real her and risking losing you--cause you're already lost.

I'm not forgetting that she also has this "grass is greener" curiosity going on at the same time. I think you can reignite her spark on this pretty easily (lots of sexy ideas already given to you).

Convincing her that you love her no matter how she looks, and her believing that she is worthwhile no matter how she looks--those are the humps you need to get over. I think counseling could really help you on that, and I'm glad you guys are getting it.

[NoCodeBlues]

Excuse me for piping in here, but can I ask a question?

WHAT THE FRAK IS WRONG ABOUT BEING A WIFE OR MOTHER ?!!!

Seriously, it is obvious that if some of you have a problem with a woman for being a wife and a mother and having a sexual nature, then it is you who have the unresolved hang-ups! Not everyone is LD or HD.

Pup has done nothing but try to be as helpful and accommodating to not only his wife and his situation but to those in other sitch's here in the DB forums. I think he, above anyone else here, deserves a little slack. So I kindly suggest you stop projecting your own desperate personality kinks onto others and get off Pup's back, please!

[Kettricken]

Maybe everything DQ, OT, and I have been saying is just a projection of our own experiences. In fact, I'll pitch a "probably" in there.

It doesn't invalidate one bit of it, though. Here you have people sharing f'ing hard-won wisdom/points of view. Some of it may fit. Everyone is different, but patterns sure repeat. If you don't believe that, why use phrases like, "WAW/MLC script?"

People are trying to give you a window into the throught process that they went through in similar situations. As diagnosis, it may lack precision or even appositeness. But you're crazy if you dismiss it as useless.

[oldtimer]

You are not doing it all. She is trying. You can't see it.

When I was looking for that email from your W, I read the first page or two of the beginning of your last thread, before you were hurt and defensive again.

Look at who you were then. Read what DQ and I are saying as THAT version of puppy and see what you get out of it.

You have slid back to your old assumptions, to your old ways of viewing W that, again, have gotten you nowhere.

Try that other puppy on again. Feel love, feel good, feel hope, feel giving -- then see if you can find compassion and understanding for W in reading recent posts rather than reasons to hold tight to your old rigid perspective.

BTW, you might want to temper your attachment to the NPD story if for no other reason than that probably at least 50% of people on these boards think that the WAS has NPD when they get serious about D. In most cases, it is a stage, the spouse-has-NPD stage. But in most cases it is merely a stage in the LBS's perspective rather than anything true about the WAS. NPD is very very rare. I doubt your W could be a good mother or a good friend with true NPD.

[Kettricken]

Seriously, it is obvious that if some of you have a problem with a woman for being a wife and a mother and having a sexual nature, then it is you who have the unresolved hang-ups!

You, sir, need to work on your reading comprehension.

[DanceQueen]

Nothing wrong with being a wife and mother...just that when that is your entire identity, it creates impotence in women.

Everyone here loves Puppy, No Code. What may appear to be tough love to you is a very VERY concerned group of people who have so much respect for Puppy that we are going to keep trying to help him see some points he hasn't been able to see before now.

DQ

[oldtimer]

There is nothing wrong with being a wife or mother. I love both. I also love being a woman and a lover.

The problem is that society is structured such that women tend to lose their woman/lover identity when they become wives and mothers. This is extremely extremely common, it is even *normal*.

Fortunately, all the roles can be reconciled :-)