Who said you had to do the same things or do them forever? But why not do what worked for awhile to see if W can find space to feel like a woman and lover inside of your M??? If she gets to a place in which woman/lover and wife/mother can coexist in her life, and you continue to have regular sex, vanilla sex will be just fine too. The problem is how she can re-embrace wife/mother without dumping woman/lover. To me, it sounds like you are willing to do a LOT sexually, unless it really seems to work for her. (Consider that your reluctance here might be withholding behavior...)
It is great that you are willing to do all that sexual experimentation. But given W was stuck in a wife/mother sexual persona, she probably didn't really feel free to enjoy it, or at least free to initiate it or acknowledge her enjoyment later.
Again Puppy...you may have been the far more HD person in your marriage BEFORE NOW....going back to the beginning....but she is changing as she ages. The old truths you knew about her and about yourself are changing rapidly.
Just because she never carried them (new kinky things) on after you introduced them, doesn't mean she didn't want to carry them on. It means she wasn't comfortable being the one to introduce them...again pointing to OT point about her being uncomfortable being a dirty girl but WANTING YOU to lead the two of you down that path. If she had NEVER ever let you introduce those things and/or never ever enjoyed them, then I could see your point. But the fact that she did enjoy them when YOU introduced them makes me think even more that OT and I are on the right track.
She's not going to carry them on...but she does want you to introduce them and help her have fun with them. What more do you want? Why isn't that good enough for a start? I know you want her to reciprocate everything...but that will have to be addressed in MC or in open honest discussions.
If you've noticed that the only time she seems to get hot and worked up is when you get things kinky and hot, then isn't that exactly what we're saying??
I appreciate that you want it to feel authentic for yourself...but aren't there some ways you can be kinky that DO feel authentic for yourself?
Please don't downplay how much of a libido killer it is to be a wife and mother. It can be the equivalent of being impotent to a woman. Please don't just do the "but she IS my wife and IS a mother", because that doesn't help you to understand anything at all. All it does is show that YOU are actually reinforcing her inability to break free sexually by having that attitude.
She was FIRST a sexual woman, and THEN a wife and mother. If that wasn't the case, then how could she have ever become a wife or a mother? We as women KNOW our sexual power...but it gets dampened the moment we enter that problematic family circus...then our worth and power become diluted by the other areas of our lives, by our ability to nurture, etc. We lose our worth for our ability to be sexual at that time. It is difficult for us to get it back....
Let me tell you though that I can guess that as she is gazing in the mirror for 15 minutes at a time, she is wishing and hoping for someone to see her beauty and to want her desperately and to give her mind blowing sex. I had said in a previous post, she is "doing herself" when she is mirror gazing. She is fantasizing about how she would look on the back of a harley riding off into the sunset, with her legs wrapped around a strong man. Now...that man can still be YOU.
But really Puppy....can you just try to let go of the first 15 years as evidence of who she is and what she wants, and instead be completely open to the idea that you have no clue who she has become, and begin getting to know the "new her"?
The sad thing is, there's only so much choc can do to create a space where "W can find space to feel like a woman and lover inside of your marriage". Ultimately, assuming he is open, cooperative, supportive, and not an arrogant bastard .... the rest is her responsiblity. He can set the table as nice as he can, but unless she gives herself permission to be hungry, she's not gonna sit down to eat. I cannot prove, but strongly suspect, that self-image issues (specifically, body image issues) are a LARGE part of what's holding her back. Although the madonna/whore dilemma may certainly be playing a role, too. My point is, he CANNOT free her from those constraints, she must do it herself.
I do think, though, Choc, that your "doesn't feel authentic" objections are so much nonsense. Why should your "real life" have much traction in the bedroom? Isn't that exactly the reason so many married sex lives crater? Because partners cannot reconcile the mundane and/or child-friendly parts of their lives with hawt kinky monkey sex in the bedroom? Once you close that door, all bets are off, or should be ....
... if your wife senses persistent constraint on your part, it certainly MIGHT be reinforcing hers ....
In some respects, of course, that's only to be expected. A long term SSM is crap for BOTH partners' comfort/dexterity with their own sexuality.
Speaking personally, it wasn't until I dealt with my hangups about portions of my husband's sexuality that we really got 'traction' in the bedroom. I didn't think I had any hangups, or that my discomfort about certain preferences (that I preferred to ignore) of his mattered to our sex life *as a whole* .... I was wrong. I had to learn to become accepting of his tastes (not damagingly perverse, mind you, just a bit unusual and not *my* tastes) as I wished him to be of mine. It's hard for a person to believe that you accept them totally and crave true intimacy with them if your own discomfort with aspects of their unique personality proves that stated position demonstrably untrue .... IOW, if you're a big fat hypocrite, albeit unconsciously. I'm not saying that applies to you, BTW, only you can answer that.
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
instead be completely open to the idea that you have no clue who she has become, and begin getting to know the "new her"?
Sign me up for the clueless club. How do you begin to know the "new her" when you are seeing the same old her over and over?
M22,H45,W45 S21/18D12 Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
It is great that you are willing to do all that sexual experimentation. But given W was stuck in a wife/mother sexual persona, she probably didn't really feel free to enjoy it, or at least free to initiate it or acknowledge her enjoyment later.
Which is why she needs individual counseling. She has hang-ups. They are HER hang-ups, and not mine. I have different ones, but these ones are hers. Until she addresses them, there's not much I can do.
But really Puppy....can you just try to let go of the first 15 years as evidence of who she is and what she wants, and instead be completely open to the idea that you have no clue who she has become, and begin getting to know the "new her"?
I'm not just using the first 15 years! If she was doing something now, during the last 5, that was dramatically different, it would be one thing, but she's not. She's rarely interested in sex, and she only seems to allow herself to open up and be intimate and close with me when faced with the reality of losing me. WHY IS THAT SO DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND???
People go where they're invited. My wife has rejected me for most of the past 20 years, finally in the ultimate form of rejection -- an affair -- two years ago. If she's so "changed" and fired-up with the new sexual passion of a woman in her 40s, then why in the hell didn't she try that with her HUSBAND, before she did it with some pimple-faced boy half her age???
No, this isn't about SEX. It's about VALIDATION, and how much she needs it vs. how much I'm willing to give it, even as none of my needs are met.
Sometimes things are complex. And sometimes they're not.
instead be completely open to the idea that you have no clue who she has become, and begin getting to know the "new her"?
Sign me up for the clueless club. How do you begin to know the "new her" when you are seeing the same old her over and over?
THANK you! Prescisely my point. Hell, even the past TWO WEEKS hasn't been "new" in any way.
All I'm seeing here is an AWFUL lot of supposition and projection about who my wife IS, based on how some other women in their 40s are. I'm not saying those desires aren't IN there somewhere -- I'm sure that, biologically, if nothing else -- they are. But I am saying that without some serious counseling on her end, and a sincere willingness to do the hard work necessary on her end, that they're NOT going to come out, and I'm further saying that it's HER responsibility to do that, not mine. All I can do is make her feel loved and safe enough to do so, but I can't do it for her.
"If she's so "changed" and fired-up with the new sexual passion of a woman in her 40s, then why in the hell didn't she try that with her HUSBAND, before she did it with some pimple-faced boy half her age???"
Once again OT's point - because he WASN'T her husband. She was NOT in wife/mother role at that moment.
If she's so "changed" and fired-up with the new sexual passion of a woman in her 40s, then why in the hell didn't she try that with her HUSBAND, before she did it with some pimple-faced boy half her age???
No, this isn't about SEX. It's about VALIDATION
Whoa, there, pardner.
You may be right, but also you may not.
In twenty years -- regardless of whose 'fault' it was -- you two built up STRONG habits of interaction.
I can very easily conceive a situation wherein it was MUCH EASIER for her to explore stirrings of resurgent sexuality with a brand new person with whom she had NO patterns, NO habits, NO baggage. People CAN change, even in the setting of a LTR, but in real life it may seem MUCH easier to 'start fresh' with a new person.
Also, in a (very assbackward way), it's a compliment. Your marriage is part of the fabric of her life. You have children together, your financial lives are intertwined. The stakes are HIGH; you MATTER.
As totally freakish and destructive as it was ... it might have been 'less threatening' to her 'real life' to experiment with a more sexual persona in a way that (because of the secrecy) didn't impact her life with you. Mind you, that is of course totally delusional and wrong .... but I've seen it in other situations, and it could have been part of her fogged-up thought process.
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
Puppy, I "hear" a lot of hurt in you. I understand how angry, hurt, frustrated and shocked the A must have made you feel. For yourself I would work on letting those negative emotions go. Forgive yourself first, let yourself off the hook and let it go as best you can. Two questions to ask yourself- Is it worth it? Can I do it? Strength and Honor Brother. Coach
M22,H45,W45 S21/18D12 Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
