One more question -piece of advice. I've been practicing the speech. Think I have it down. Last time, she got very defensive, accused me of spying, etc... Probably going to happen again. My initial thought is that I need to just walk away after I say my peace and not stay around looking for a response. Should I engage her if she wants to have a R talk? I know it probably will depend, but I'd like to have my whole strategy worked out. Last time she turned it all back on me and she ended up leaving the house mad at me and we didn't talk for weeks.
One more question -piece of advice. I've been practicing the speech. Think I have it down. Last time, she got very defensive, accused me of spying, etc... Probably going to happen again. My initial thought is that I need to just walk away after I say my peace and not stay around looking for a response. Should I engage her if she wants to have a R talk? I know it probably will depend, but I'd like to have my whole strategy worked out. Last time she turned it all back on me and she ended up leaving the house mad at me and we didn't talk for weeks.
Generally when you confront you have to be prepared for the fact that your M can end due to the confrontation.
I'd be firm and take all the deflecting, etc. and just focus her on the fact that she is having an A and you cannot discuss any other issues until she ends the A.
If she walks out? You are better off if she's going to continue cuckolding you.
"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into."
Before I attempt to answer it, the first thing I would encourage you to do would be about the TONE. You don't want to come across as angry, preachy, or vindictive. "Sad, but resolute" would be a good way to describe what I'd like to see you shoot for, as in "I'm sad that you've chosen this way to run away from our problems, but you're an adult, and I can't control you. I can only tell you that in no way am I willing to live in an open marriage."
If she accuses you of spying, I would suggest saying "Everything I've done, I've done to try to fight for our marriage and our family, but I certainly understand your being upset." or "I'm only trying to fight for our marriage." If she specifically uses the "privacy" word, be sure and make a distinction between "privacy" and "SECRETS". The best way I've seen it explained is "Privacy is closing the door when you go to the bathroom. Secrets is keeping something from your spouse that a husband and a wife should be sharing with one another."
While you will need to have an R talk at some point, and also from time to time, my advice would be to NOT get into it during THIS talk. This talk is about YOU -- YOUR boundaries of personal integrity, and YOUR stance. If she tries to talk about the relationship (and she will!), then say "I don't want to talk about that right now. I'm willing to address any and all issues -- including mine -- but not as long as you're having an affair."
And then don't waver from that.
It's fruitless to discuss the marital relationship so long as one party has unilaterally invited a third person into it.
I did the snooping around a bit and found out what was going on behind my back before I confronted my H. I believe that as long as you can handle the information, and it will be tough at times, you should do a bit of snooping so that you know what you are up against. When everything went down between me and my H, he accused me of having affairs too and that so and so said that I did this. However I did not do any of those things and what I had accuse him of, I had hard evidence to back me up(text messages, naked pics texted to my sister, and sex web site profiles) It is hard for the accused to deny or lie when you have some sort of evidence to the contrary. I was accused of snooping too and I admitted that I did snoop to learn what was going on. I then asked him if 'I had not been snooping would you have told me all of this on your own?'. Of course the answer was no. In the end it really boils down to the fact that the one that is having the affair got caught and will try whatever tactic they can to turn it around so that the one who did not stray has done SOMETHING, ANYTHING wrong to make the person with the affair feel better about themselves. This is what happened to me. It is hard at first but you can get through it.
If and when you confront her, listen to the advice from the others. Tell her what you know and that you won't discuss your R until she quits the affair. If she can not quit the affair then you know where you stand.
You sound like a man that is still in love with his wife and wants very badly to get his M back on track. Have you figured out the reasons why she strays? What have you been doing in the way of the DB techniques? Have you started with a councelor of your own? Keep trying as long as you have the hope and the desire to make your M work. If you have doen EVERYTHING that you can do to make it work then you can have a clear head when it comes to your R.
Hope to hear from you soon if you confront the issues tonight. Good Luck to you!!
Me-31 Him-28 D1-9 D2-6 Married 5-06 Seperated 12-07 He filed 1-08 Reconciled 4-08 D dropped 7-08 Bomb dropped about H's activities outside the marriage 4-21-09 Filed for D 4-28-09 Trying to make a go of it 6-09
Had the talk last night - she was not surprised that it was coming. As expected she challenged me on my statement that i knew about her and ____. "know what?, who told you?, what did they say?". I asked to let me finish and she did. She continued to ask about why I think she was involved with ___ and I was firm in my response - I just know, that's all I'm going to tell you. She finally accepted that. She stated that they were just friends and that she was always with him with her other girlfriends, never out alone. I know that the continual texting constitues an EA. I feel I do know her well enough to believe that there is no PA. But the whole being on the pill thing distrubs me. If no PA, then why on the pill. Again, could be a medical need. I feel I need to ask her if she has been faithful to me. I think she will give a a straight answer, but... should I ask? I think her answer may help me determine my course of action - but would I do something different if I knew she was unfaithful to me or not? Not sure if I need to know or just want to know. (thinking it would it be good to have if we end up down the D path).
Although I wasn't expecting it, we did evolve into a R talk. She said that she wasn't happy, ILYBNILWY message, wondered if she was ever in love with me. A lot of hurtful things, but also encouraging things. She said I don't listen, and much to her credit she gave me specifics. Like a 2x4 to the forehaed I realized she was right. I hadn't listened to her last fall when our M problems first came up and we talked about seperation. We had many months of hard times, I was working on my GAL and making progress. I felt she seemed to notice because then she started to act differently toward me, and she seemed to be faling in love with me. Best sex I have had in years. We were affectionate, talking, and laughing. I continued to let her have her space (her own GAL), and I continued on mine. But now I wonder if I was so happy that she was back that I stopped listening. I asked her if she was happy last fall and she said no, she was not. I should have probed more, but didn't.
She said she did love me. She said I deserved to be happy. I am a great husband, father, provider. I have given her everything she can hope for - we raise great kids, she has her "dream home". I provide for her and am there for her. But she said she's not happy, she hasn't been for several years, maybe ever. She said she doesnt know if she ever was in love with me. She never had that "spark" with me, That feeling of wanting someone, of desiring someone so much. I asked her what that meant - what does she need to have that would make her desire someone so much. "I don't know".
I aksed her if she would go to counseling to try and see if she could help figure out what she needed to be happy. She said no - she needs to figure this out on her own. I told her counseling had helped me and I think it would help her. She again refused and said she has to work this out on her own and that her friends will help her. I stopped pushing.
I asked her what she needed - she doesn't know, but brought up the seperation thing. She's afraid of what it will do to the kids. She doesn't want to be in a loveless marriage, but also is concerned about the kids and what a seperation would do to them. She said our D18 is noticing that things aren't right between us. I asked her multiple times if a seperation is what she wanted. "I don't know". I asked her if she expected me to move out. "I don't know", she said. She knows she can not afford to live on her own and she stated that. She works part time, which helps cover some of our "extras". I know I can live without her income, but she can not live without mine. I think that is very concerning to her.
We made a decision years ago that she would be a stay at home mom until our kids were grown. She started working part time about three years ago to help supplement our HH income. She hates her job (actually, likes her job, but does not like her boss), but loves where she works and the people she works with. I fully supported her decision to stay home and truly feel it is one of the reasons we have some wonderful kids. She is a great parent.
I told her that my position is that I am not willing to move out. I told her that I think she needs some alone time to figure out what she needs and wants, and if that includes me or not. I told her I would support her in whatever she wants to do - thinking now that that might have been a mistake, especially as I consider going dark on her right now.
She told me I deserve better than her. I deserve the best. I told here that that was really my decision to make, not hers and I have decided that I deserve her. I told her that she is a great mom, wife, lover. But also told her that I am not willing to live in a loveless marriage either.
At that point, the kids came home and interrupted our conversation. She left for a drive and I started dinner. She returned about an hour later (after dinner), and then said she was going to Costco. I said I needed some stuff as well and she said to come along with her. We took our youngest S14 along as well, so no further R conversation. Returned home, she went to do some gardening, I watched some of the hockey game with my S16, and then went to bed. I was so tired from 3 days on little sleep that I couldn't stay awake much longer. Finally had a good night sleep and feel some much better today.
I am also encouraged. Although some hard and painful statements and messages were conveyed yesterday, everything that I experienced has been experienced by others. I need to re-read MWD's books again. I need to continue on my GAL plans. I need to dig further into these message boards for support and advice.
Should I go dark now? We left so many things open yesterday that I'm thinking not yet. We need to set some more definetd "rules" about what I will accept, how we deal with the kids, friends, others if we do seperate.
Even though last night was tough, it's just something that we needed to go through. We had a relapse, I stopped doing what I should have been doing and felt that our issues had been resolved when she started acting differently toward me last fall. But we didn't resolve the underlying issues and still need to do that.
Right now, I'm thinking of leaving everything alone for a while and see if she will start anything. But also wondering if I should prompt a follow up talk or not.
I would appreciate any advice or suggestions on next steps.
I wish you hadn't had the R talk with her, and advised against it. You've given her ALL of the power back. What jumps out at me from your conversation is how many times you keep asking HER what SHE wants. Until you're ready to express, in a strong but loving way, what GOODGUY wants, she will never respect you.
And women tie "respect" VERY closely with "love" -- in fact, most women cannot love a man deeply if they're not feeling respect for him.
If you ask her if she's been faithful to you, and she has, she will say "yes."
If you ask her if she's been faithful to you, and she hasn't (and I don't think she has), she will lie to you, and say "yes."
See your dilemna?
Cheaters always lie -- period.
Here's the other problem you have: if she IS cheating on you, then nearly everything she says to you is a lie at worst, or is "spin"/"re-writing of marital history" at best. And yet you are now going to try to use it as data from which to form a foundation for your strategy and tactics moving forward. That won't work.
Did she ever have a serious conversation with you BEFORE last fall, when she suggested a separation? My guess is that she was already involved at that point.
I don't mean to be all negative -- there's a lot you did right. You refused to reveal the source(s) of your intel, but yet remained absolutely firm that you knew all about her and OM. EXCELLENT.
You told her you weren't going to move out of your own house. EXCELLENT.
Where you lost control was as soon as it started to veer toward an R talk, you should have cut it off, and said "I don't want to talk about this now. End your affair, and we'll talk about any and all issues, including mine. Until then, there's really no sense discussing it."
Just think about it. Re-read your post (and re-think about the conversation with your wife). How many times are you asking HER (the one who DOESN'T have your marriage's best interests at heart right now, btw) what SHE wants to do?
Doesn't it make sense that the spouse that DOES have the marriage's (and the family's) best interests at heart, assert control and try to steer the agenda and timetable as much as possible?
