Puppy - you are preaching to the choir. I think we all agree she is failing you, and that she doesn't even know it. She does regard her feelings as more important than yours, that is true. Many women do that because men rarely talk about feelings at all, therefore we conclude that feelings are not really important to THEM or they would be making noises about it. Have you shared the above article with your wife? How about starting there?
And when its all said and done, if you and your W end up D'd, then I'm sure you're going to find one of many thousands of women our age who will give you all the sex you want, even if you didn't do everything just right that day, even if you didn't even initiate, even if you forgot to take out the trash....because women our age are ooozing forth with sexual energy just waiting to be tapped.
Your wife is ooozing it, too...she's just immature and has NO EXPERIENCE (how could she?) with practicing and playing with her sexual nature. But if you won't start being open to the idea that she even feels this way, how can SHE be open to it at all?
Again, have you showed her the article above, and if not, why not? She might just have some epiphany.
"I have told her that I am willing to try and continue to change, grow and meet her needs, so long as she's making a reasonable effort to meet mine. It's when she doesn't that I pull away, she knows this, and yet she does it anyway -- EVERY . . . SINGLE . . . TIME."
Right, and what would explain this?
Because she is a narcissist, and lacks empathy, and only gets sufficiently motivated to meet my needs when presented with a strong enough external threat to upset her self-centered equilibrium.
I'm not saying that's necessarily IT, but it's certainly more than plausible, and it's what people that know her (and our sitch) the best seem to think.
I suppose the difficult thing is going back again and again and finding the same reaction from your W. But then again - maybe the cycle continues and you can really only control your part in the dance.
I know how soul-draining it is to try and effect change on someone who isn't putting in much effort. The fact you have continued thus far is a testament to your tenacity or you are a glutton for punishment.
If it is something worth doing however, it generally isn't easy.
I'm willing to do the work, but in the last few years I've begun to question even the whole underlying premise of "One person can affect change in another by changing themselves." It's the basic underlying assumption of MWD's "Sex-Starved Marriage," and of most self-help and marital help advice and books, and yet I just don't see the success stories. The only successes I see -- and even then they're DAMNED hard to pull off -- are when BOTH partners are equally committed to change, and to do the hard work necessary.
Puppy - you are preaching to the choir. I think we all agree she is failing you, and that she doesn't even know it. She does regard her feelings as more important than yours, that is true. Many women do that because men rarely talk about feelings at all, therefore we conclude that feelings are not really important to THEM or they would be making noises about it. Have you shared the above article with your wife? How about starting there?
And when its all said and done, if you and your W end up D'd, then I'm sure you're going to find one of many thousands of women our age who will give you all the sex you want, even if you didn't do everything just right that day, even if you didn't even initiate, even if you forgot to take out the trash....because women our age are ooozing forth with sexual energy just waiting to be tapped.
Your wife is ooozing it, too...she's just immature and has NO EXPERIENCE (how could she?) with practicing and playing with her sexual nature. But if you won't start being open to the idea that she even feels this way, how can SHE be open to it at all?
Again, have you showed her the article above, and if not, why not? She might just have some epiphany.
DQ
DQ,
I haven't shared the articles themselves with her, but we've had many, MANY conversations about a very similar point: that it's bullchit to not try to meet a spouse's needs because "I'm just not good at that, and you knew that when you married me." She has a friend whose husband never gives her flowers, a gift or even a card on Valentine's Day or their anniversary. When she complains to him about it, he tells her "You knew the way I was when you married me," and my wife says that's b.s. -- that you still have to TRY, even tho it may not come naturally to you, and I agreed, and would relate it back to each of US meeting each other's primary LLs. We even talked about that very thing with the MC. My wife agrees, knows it's b.s., knows she does it, and yet still can't sustain NOT doing it.
If I sent her the articles now, it would violate the "no expectations/no pressure" agreement we have, and besides, it's not my job to teach her. A man can't teach a woman how to explore her own sexuality; she has to take the accountability for that HERSELF, and want to do so, don't you think?.
I'm willing to do the work, but in the last few years I've begun to question even the whole underlying premise of "One person can affect change in another by changing themselves." It's the basic underlying assumption of MWD's "Sex-Starved Marriage," and of most self-help and marital help advice and books, and yet I just don't see the success stories. The only successes I see -- and even then they're DAMNED hard to pull off -- are when BOTH partners are equally committed to change, and to do the hard work necessary.
I don't necessarily disagree. Eventually the other spouse has to pick up the slack or the M is dead walking.
That being said - my point is that one person can affect change in themselves. You can't worry about what she chooses to do - because it is ultimately her choice as to whether or not she responds to your changes.
If you have a continuing dance that always goes a certain way - you can change your part in the dance, and by nature this will change the dance itself. Whether that has the end result you want is not something you have any control over.
"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into."
"A man can't teach a woman how to explore her own sexuality; she has to take the accountability for that HERSELF, and want to do so, don't you think?."
No Puppy I don't agree with that, and I needed a man to help me explore (what's the point of doing it alone? then you are only exploring masterbation) and you are still just by-passing all my points and insisting that you "know" your wife. But I will wait and watch what happens and pray for you, as I know everyone else here is doing as well....its just that if you are "right", then it appears you will end up divorced, so I'd rather you not be "right" even while you insist that you are.
Ok, I read the article excerpt that you posted. I honestly didn't know that until after the A was full blown with my ex and I read it in some magazine. I asked him about it and he said that is right. Sex was how he expressed love for me and how he thought I should express it to him. Forget the tons of things I did on a daily basis for him and for us that were my ways of expression. Those just didn't matter.
Without getting into more of those issues in my own situation, it is certainly something I will keep first and formost in my mind during my next relationship. It is give and take and giving to recieve. Someone, somewhere needs to break the cycle.
kat
Me-53(and learning!) S24, S21, D18, D17 Just keep swimming, Just keep swimming. Dory
"A man can't teach a woman how to explore her own sexuality; she has to take the accountability for that HERSELF, and want to do so, don't you think?."
No Puppy I don't agree with that, and I needed a man to help me explore (what's the point of doing it alone? then you are only exploring masterbation) and you are still just by-passing all my points and insisting that you "know" your wife. But I will wait and watch what happens and pray for you, as I know everyone else here is doing as well....its just that if you are "right", then it appears you will end up divorced, so I'd rather you not be "right" even while you insist that you are.
DQ
Believe it or not, that makes two of us, DQ. And thanks.
And for 20 years, that's been me. I just don't know if I can do it anymore. She's going to have to carry more of the weight this time if it is to work.
"A man can't teach a woman how to explore her own sexuality; she has to take the accountability for that HERSELF, and want to do so, don't you think?."
I think in many ways, ONLY a man that a woman loves and trusts can teach her how to explore her own sexuality. I think that only in the context of the safety of that kind of relationship can she begin that journey. I really think she wants to do that, altho I'm not sure she knows it or can articulate it; she certainly doesn't know how because she keeps heading down blind alleys.
M60 H52 D20 M14 yrs OW-old gf from 1986 bomb-5/18/08 H filed for D-9/10/08 D final 4/24/09 xH remarried (not OW) 2012
