Over the Shock - Detaching and GALing 3

[Thinker]

I hope that your W takes a journey that includes Schnarch's book, too.

Not a chance right now - she won't come near any self help or R books - so if Schnarch is "involved" it will have to be through me.

My guess is that she desperately wants intimacy, but that she is so afraid of it that she needs the man to lead her through it.

Exactly. Up to this point, I did not know that she needed this or how to do it. I'm still not sure, but am reading.

I would think that she needs the right combination of being wanted and pursued, feeling safe, and having trust in you.

Yes, and herein lies the difficult:
needs "being wanted and pursued" - but no pressure or pursuit

needs "feeling safe and having trust in me" - but is threatened by my changes and by the transparency.

i.e. what she needs for intimacy, and what is needed to reestablish the relationship (dbing) are mutually exclusive.

If those assumptions are correct, it will take some time for her to want to engage again. She will need to rebuild trust in you, as well as attraction for you (sounds like this has been damaged in the process of the A being uncovered.)

This is why I am considering giving up the transparency - because it is interfering with her ability to trust me and be attracted to me. As discussed, I have still not decided here, but am debating with myself...

Your N.U.T. about trusting people isn't specific enough. She broke your trust. That is proven. So, you are allowed to go through some recovery and have some slip ups during that recovery based on feeling betrayed, disillusioned, bewildered, shattered...

I trust people who are worthy of that trust?

I agree that I am feelign betrayed, disillusioned, bewildered, shattered, etc - less now than before. But what I really want is for her to be open and honest with me - do I get that by mandating transparency from her when she does not want to give it? I think what I get is resentment and a person who just either flaunts or looks for ways around the transparency.

Though you are married and cohabitating, she is still "over there." I would recommend that you continue to treat her as a girl that you are hoping to date, not as the man you used to be, but as the man who has read MWD, Glover, Schnarch... She needs time to let her guard down and warm up to you.

OK. Have to think on that one. Need to understand how that new man would approach it.

Also struggling with the "time" she needs. I am running out of energy and motivation. Her disinterest, disrespect and rejection are wearing on me and I am losing interest and motivation.

[LG nm12]

I'm not sure about "mandating transparency." I have an urge to say, absolutely no, don't mandate. Just step back and trust that she will conduct her life in the best interest of herself, you, and the kids. If she is hellbent on straying or seeking something outside the marriage, there is probably nothing you can do from stopping that (mutual transparency or not.) But, I think I've read posts on alternate viewpoints on this with someone who has recently cheated... Perhaps others will comment on that.

I'm sorry that this is wearing on you. It must be incredibly tough, and you have a right to feel whatever you feel.

You are doing great.

Hang in there,
Lucky

[Thinker]

I'm not sure about "mandating transparency." I have an urge to say, absolutely no, don't mandate. Just step back and trust that she will conduct her life in the best interest of herself, you, and the kids. If she is hellbent on straying or seeking something outside the marriage, there is probably nothing you can do from stopping that (mutual transparency or not.) But, I think I've read posts on alternate viewpoints on this with someone who has recently cheated... Perhaps others will comment on that.

I mandated the transparency, and she reluctantly gave it. Now she is saying "I hate that you are reading my private mails with my friends" "I want my privacy" "I hate that you are spying on me - it's controlling and ugly". She is now watching me trying to catch me spying on her. She is planting things in her mails to make me mad so that she can prove her point. (so far I haven't gotten mad because I haven't read her mails, and therefore did not fall for the trap).

She won't change her passwords now on her own, she'll just resent me for not wanting her to.

At the same time, she will still email OM if she wants to - she would just delete the mails from her inbox and outbox immediately to destroy the evidence. So since the transparency is not willingly and openly given, I am not sure if it is buying me anything. It is not really helping me to trust her, and it is definitely hurting her ability to trust me.

So I am considering making a trust-building gesture, and telling her to change her passwords.

2 months ago, I would have said "No F'ing Way", but now I am a bit more detached. I don't want to hold onto transparency as a false security blanket if it is actually harming my sitch.

[Thinker]

I'm sorry that this is wearing on you.
...

Hang in there,

I think this must be something that every LBS goes through but right now I am thinking:

"This woman has not chosen me. She does not want me and is with me right now only due to inertia and history. She does not respect me, does not appreciate my contributions, does not treat me well, and is not open and honest with me...

...so why would I want to be married to her?"

[antlers]

Because you love her, and she loved you too! She might still love you, regardless of what she says or does, or she might decide to love you again!

[Thinker]

Because you love her, and she loved you too! She might still love you, regardless of what she says or does, or she might decide to love you again!

Yes, that -- and also (primarily right now) for the sake of our sons.

I do know that right now, if we did not have children, I would have already given up and walked away.

At least, by staying, I am learning and (painfully) growing

[LG nm12]

Thinker,

Even if you "mandate transparency," she can always go to the library or a friend's computer, and she can get another email address without you knowing.

You don't have to trust her, but keeping her under lock and key (eg, mandating transparency) isn't going to attract her to you. Mandating anything is just going to make her resent you.

Your idea of doing some kind of act of showing trust is nice, but are you ready to tell her that you trust her in honesty? I don't think you trust her yet (you will know when you do, because there will be a shift in your intimacy.)

I certainly don't blame you for needing some time to build that trust in her again, and any hint of her trying to contact OM likely brings you right back to square one. So, while you blame yourself for bringing you two back to square one, the reality is that she hasn't really kept up her end of the deal either.

You both need some time and breathing room for personal development, in my opinion. Don't be too hard on yourself, and embrace the pain of growth!

Lucky

[Thinker]

So I am considering making a trust-building gesture, and telling her to change her passwords.

2 months ago, I would have said "No F'ing Way", but now I am a bit more detached. I don't want to hold onto transparency as a false security blanket if it is actually harming my sitch.

The counter argument is as follows:

By mandating transparency, I have set a boundary in our R - Transparency and Openness Are Not Optional. Her resentment, etc is her way of testing the boundary. So far, I haven't caved.

If this is the case, then I shouldn't cave. I should continue enforcing my boundary.

---

SmileysPerson said it once on his thread - For every argument and piece of advice, there is an equal and opposite counter argument.

[Thinker]

Thinker,

Even if you "mandate transparency," she can always go to the library or a friend's computer, and she can get another email address without you knowing.

You don't have to trust her, but keeping her under lock and key (eg, mandating transparency) isn't going to attract her to you. Mandating anything is just going to make her resent you.

Your idea of doing some kind of act of showing trust is nice, but are you ready to tell her that you trust her in honesty? I don't think you trust her yet (you will know when you do, because there will be a shift in your intimacy.)

I certainly don't blame you for needing some time to build that trust in her again, and any hint of her trying to contact OM likely brings you right back to square one. So, while you blame yourself for bringing you two back to square one, the reality is that she hasn't really kept up her end of the deal either.

You both need some time and breathing room for personal development, in my opinion. Don't be too hard on yourself, and embrace the pain of growth!

Lucky

I don't really blame myself, and I definitely don't trust her. I even told her that explicitly - when she listed out her reasons that the M could not work, I listened, then told her that I agreed with those and had one more - that I had lost trust in her.

It's not a question of trust vs not trust.

It's a question of:

maintaining a boundary that has been set (open passwords), because it is what I want, because I was being strong when I set the boundary, and because it increases the possibility that I will catch it if (when) something starts up again with OM.

vs.

conceding (to myself) that it provides only the illusion of transparency, that control is impossible, and that it is better for my sitch to give her the privacy and security she needs to work through it for herself.


Basically, it's not to trust or not to trust, it's whether to "stand strong" or to "let go".

[Coach]

I mandated the transparency, and she reluctantly gave it.

So was it given like a direct order or was it a mutual beneficial decision?

"I hate that you are spying on me - it's controlling and ugly".

How often has your W called you controlling?

She is planting things in her mails to make me mad so that she can prove her point. (so far I haven't gotten mad because I haven't read her mails, and therefore did not fall for the trap).

Then how do you know she is planting things if you are not snooping or spying?

At the same time, she will still email OM if she wants to - she would just delete the mails from her inbox and outbox immediately to destroy the evidence. So since the transparency is not willingly and openly given, I am not sure if it is buying me anything. It is not really helping me to trust her, and it is definitely hurting her ability to trust me.

So drop it. You can still set boundaries.

So I am considering making a trust-building gesture, and telling her to change her passwords.

Sounds like more trust directives.

2 months ago, I would have said "No F'ing Way", but now I am a bit more detached

Really? This whole post is about your W.

Focus on yourself. If it doesn't work try something different.

I don't want to hold onto transparency as a false security blanket if it is actually harming my sitch.

So is it a harm or healthy?

Do something good for yourself today. Understand where all the negative emotions are coming from. Feel them, think tru them then come up with a positive solution and then act on it.
You can handle it.
Cheers