I want to give you props for all of the hard work you are doing. The only thing you have control of is yourself. Keep reading Schnarch!
You can't force her to have a certain opinion of you and you can't force her to be transparent with you. In a healthy R, trust and transparency simply exist. There isn't an urge to monitor your spouse's every move. It is understandable that you have the urge to spy, because your R is rocky. But, focusing on her is giving you pain and grief. So, whatever you do, try to get back to focusing on you.
I might assume that her and OM's comments about your sexuality are their guess at why she feels that the passion is empty. It is a cheap and easy way to blame it on you. OM had no place to state any opinions whatsoever.
So, I would disregard their foolish attempt at finding an explanation for the empty passion. It was your W's job to talk to you about this before straying so that you could figure it out together. You mentioned that you don't agree that the passion was empty, but I would believe that she is telling you her true opinion. For her, it felt empty.
BUT. I would give the "empty passion" comment fair weight and some serious exploration. How can you have deep, rich passion and intimacy if you are closed and controlled (as we have discussed before?)
You did enough in reassuring her of your preferences and of your intent. I would let her sit with that and move back to reading and introspection for now.
Oh, and if it is any consolation... My H is a soft spoken creative type with Nice Guy tendencies. When my Mom first met him, she pulled me aside directly and asked, "Is he gay?" My answer was, "No, just evolved."
It was really hard. DBing while living in the same house with and being in constant contact with the person is much harder than some people think. Although I don't wish to get separated, I sometimes think "this would be so much easier if we weren't together all the time"
I do need to find a way to turn it from a sprint to a marathon - the sprint is burning me out.
Oh yeah, I hear you. When we still sit down and watch TV together, read boks t our S at night, eat meals together, etc. it makes it so hard. I try and tell myself that it means that my WAW still likes me, that she may not tell a should in the world this but she still deep down has a sliver of hope. The delicate balance now is to nurture that hope and not snuff it.
H35 W34 S4 | T-10 yrs M-6 yrs WAW said M over 04/09 | Living separate since 09/09 Thread #1 Thread #2 Thread #3
It's been my experience that one can not say or do anything right with a WAW when they are dealing with their emotional turmoil and pain. If it's not one thing it's another. They will just find something else to detest and resent you for.
Good point - I am seeing a lot of that right now. I just got a call from my WAW to let me know she got a copy of the filing that dismissed her legal separation action. I said I did as well last Friday but I forgot to tell her (work, FIL visit, etc. made it a busy past 3-4 days). She got mad because I had "bugged" her about it before which implied I didn't trust her on her word that she had done it, but then I didn't tell I got the paperwork.
Can't win!
H35 W34 S4 | T-10 yrs M-6 yrs WAW said M over 04/09 | Living separate since 09/09 Thread #1 Thread #2 Thread #3
You mentioned that you don't agree that the passion was empty, but I would believe that she is telling you her true opinion. For her, it felt empty.
BUT. I would give the "empty passion" comment fair weight and some serious exploration. How can you have deep, rich passion and intimacy if you are closed and controlled (as we have discussed before?)
This was a bit of a typo. I meant to say that I don't disagree that it is empty. In other words I AGREE. The sex has been empty, perfunctory, mechanical - you name it.
Part of it is definitely my closed, controlled nature - I take responsibility for that and am working on it. Schnarch, however, has opened my eyes a bit. My W has been completely closed to intimacy for a long time. My guess is that it is since the death of her father. I have fought against it, pressured her, denied it, etc, but now it has become obvious to me.
My W won't hold hands with me. She won't "make out". She never really touches me except mechanically - ie where I will often rub her back, stoke her arm or run my fingers through her hair trying to establish a connection, she never does anything like that to me. Even though she asks me for massages, she won't reciprocate. When she does it is quick, mechanical and without connection.
When we ML, she won't kiss me, won't look at me, and turns away afterward.
I have been desperate to establish a connection between us and am always disappointed after sex because there is none.
It's no wonder that she say's the sex feels "empty". It is!
Originally Posted By: LuckyGirl
you can't force her to be transparent with you
Right. I think that right now she is allowing transparency because I forced the issue when I exposed the EA 3 months ago. She agreed to tell me her passwords and not change them, and so far she has stuck to that, probably because she knows I would get angry if she changed them.
I was happy. I thought it was a step toward openness and reconciliation.
But she now has become paranoid and says "It creeps me out thinking of you sitting in your office reading all of my mail". I haven't. I don't. But there is nothing I can say that would re-assure her.
So that is a question that I have been struggling with. Either a) she is testing the openness boundary I set with her several months ago, in which case I need to maintain it, or b) she is really freaked out by it and it is driving her away and I need to give it up in order to allow some space to heal.
It is really pitting two of my N.U.T.s against one another: - I trust people - I expect those who I love to be open and honest with me.
Last edited by Thinker; 05/18/0903:08 PM.
Me 42, W 39, S8, S6, S2 M 11y, A & ILYBNILWY 11/08 Walking away from a bad situation.
Agreed - focus on yourself. You are going to get Sh*t for that too (I do) but at least you are doing it for you.
My W complains that I am not funny and that therefore we don't have humor in our R. "That's strange" I think, because I laugh a lot when I am with other people. So does she with her friends, but If I try to joke around with her, she squashes it like a wet blanket.
Just an example - whatever you change, the WAS is going to interpret it as a fake attempt to influence them, so just make sure you are doing it for you, and then take the heat and stay strong with it.
Easier said than done, I know.
Me 42, W 39, S8, S6, S2 M 11y, A & ILYBNILWY 11/08 Walking away from a bad situation.
Just an example - whatever you change, the WAS is going to interpret it as a fake attempt to influence them, so just make sure you are doing it for you, and then take the heat and stay strong with it.
I know this, going to live this, but when they actually say it is an act, how to respond?
H35 W34 S4 | T-10 yrs M-6 yrs WAW said M over 04/09 | Living separate since 09/09 Thread #1 Thread #2 Thread #3
I know this, going to live this, but when they actually say it is an act, how to respond?
"Just something I am doing for myself to be a better man."
M22,H45,W45 S21/18D12 Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
Part of it is definitely my closed, controlled nature - I take responsibility for that and am working on it. Schnarch, however, has opened my eyes a bit. My W has been completely closed to intimacy for a long time. My guess is that it is since the death of her father. I have fought against it, pressured her, denied it, etc, but now it has become obvious to me.
My W won't hold hands with me. She won't "make out". She never really touches me except mechanically - ie where I will often rub her back, stoke her arm or run my fingers through her hair trying to establish a connection, she never does anything like that to me. Even though she asks me for massages, she won't reciprocate. When she does it is quick, mechanical and without connection.
When we ML, she won't kiss me, won't look at me, and turns away afterward.
I have been desperate to establish a connection between us and am always disappointed after sex because there is none.
It's no wonder that she say's the sex feels "empty". It is!
I hope that your W takes a journey that includes Schnarch's book, too. My guess is that she desperately wants intimacy, but that she is so afraid of it that she needs the man to lead her through it. I would think that she needs the right combination of being wanted and pursued, feeling safe, and having trust in you. Nothing mindblowing here, as you may have already reached these conclusions... just thinking aloud. If those assumptions are correct, it will take some time for her to want to engage again. She will need to rebuild trust in you, as well as attraction for you (sounds like this has been damaged in the process of the A being uncovered.)
Originally Posted By: Thinker
But she now has become paranoid and says "It creeps me out thinking of you sitting in your office reading all of my mail". I haven't. I don't. But there is nothing I can say that would re-assure her.
So that is a question that I have been struggling with. Either a) she is testing the openness boundary I set with her several months ago, in which case I need to maintain it, or b) she is really freaked out by it and it is driving her away and I need to give it up in order to allow some space to heal.
It is really pitting two of my N.U.T.s against one another: - I trust people - I expect those who I love to be open and honest with me.
Your N.U.T. about trusting people isn't specific enough. She broke your trust. That is proven. So, you are allowed to go through some recovery and have some slip ups during that recovery based on feeling betrayed, disillusioned, bewildered, shattered...
Though you are married and cohabitating, she is still "over there." I would recommend that you continue to treat her as a girl that you are hoping to date, not as the man you used to be, but as the man who has read MWD, Glover, Schnarch... She needs time to let her guard down and warm up to you.
I love Lucky's response to you Thinker about treating your W as a girl you are hoping to date. Remember those days of dating? Every moment spent with them was wonderful - no pressure, no pain, all good. This is what I'm trying to bring back too - to try and remember not to pressure, not to feel disappointed, not to have so many darn expectations!
The fact your wife is willing to ML is huge, in my opinion. No matter how she acts otherwise, for women, ML is the most intimate connection.
Last edited by Maggie999; 05/18/0904:42 PM.
Me:47 H:49 3 grown kids Together: 29 years Sep: 5/8/09
