i disagree with the heart to heart. relationship talk rarely leads to action. I would go for non-stop flirting and pursuing. No need to test the water assume it is hot.
"but then when night rolls around, she falls asleep on the couch and isn't as responsive."
remember when you were young, really young lola and there was a girl you wanted and you would chase and pursue and get nothing. spend your entire paycheck, drive 25 mile each way and if you were lucky get to put your hand up her shirt. it was the pursuit that drove you and weakened her. same story fast forward 20 -30 years.
I agree with Steve on the no-talk. She made it very clear that she's mentally and emotionally exhausted from "trying to figure out" and "analyze everything."
So much for her introspective period.
She wants to just "be" -- to take our R as it goes, and see where that leads us. Doesn't sound like much of a plan to me, but I'm not sure what to do at this point OTHER than to get her into that IC as soon as possible. THAT part I'm not relenting on.
So she likes the chase, she loves the attention. Now you have two keys to your puzzle.
(Third key) So what was different with OM? Was the s*x different with him? Or did she only wanted to be chased by him as well?
We've talked about this. She says it was that he paid her attention, at a time in her life when I wasn't and that she felt she really needed it. I doubt it was the sex -- she seemed to be doling that out to him in just sufficient quantity to keep him interested in her (remember, I had voice recordings and computer keylogger -- I saw a LOT of data to back up my theories. Doesn't make them RIGHT necessarily, just that they're more than just my guesses or hunches).
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Fourth key, what else turns her on? You mentioned the 'Cougar' show. Well, what about it exactly that turns her on? Is it because the women in the show are strong, confident, sexy? Does she want to be like them, to feel like them? If so, how can you act so that she feels strong, confident and sexy? Does she fantasize about being the pursuer?
Occasionally. She'd rather be the Pursued. She does love the validation that comes from seeing an older, sexy woman being portrayed in the media in a positive light -- it's a sure-fire conversation starter for us every time.
Everyone's advice points toward a woman approaching midlife who is wanting to explore her sexuality. I see two problems with this: one, we're focusing on the sexual aspect, and I think it's merely a by-product here, and two, I don't see (and never have) much exploration going on with her. No introspection -- reading, etc. -- no sincere facing of her issues.
I no longer have a keylogger on her computer, but I do check her browsing history from time to time. If what you are all saying were true, you would expect to see things Googled like "sex tips for women in 40s" or "how to let him know you want to be seduced" or "sexual positions" or even "reevaluating midlife" or some such. What do I see?
You're all giving her way too much credit for "depth." That's not a knock -- on you OR her -- just an observation, as I'd rather keep the advice focused on things I can do that better reflect both of our current realities.
take the lead man. it 10 am, how much have you pursued thus far this morning?
"it was that lack of PURSUIT that killed her."
It's a school/workday. We get up at 6am, make coffee, feed the pets, let the dog out, wake the boys, get them breakfast, out the door to school. She works this morning, and it is her most stressful day of the week, as she has to work in the morning and then again this evening. She's typically in a stressed, bad mood on Monday mornings, and this morning was no exception. We awoke EARLY this morning, too, at 5:30am by our labrador trying to get into our bedroom and get his head in the garbage can, and refusing to come out.
Fun.
We did talk this weekend about "patterns," and trying to identify what they are. We both agreed that it's the weekdays that kill us -- our roles as mother and father, and our jobs, reduce us to something less than (my first name) and (her first name). Neither one of us find the other very attractive during the week.
i disagree with the heart to heart. relationship talk rarely leads to action. I would go for non-stop flirting and pursuing. No need to test the water assume it is hot.
"but then when night rolls around, she falls asleep on the couch and isn't as responsive."
remember when you were young, really young lola and there was a girl you wanted and you would chase and pursue and get nothing. spend your entire paycheck, drive 25 mile each way and if you were lucky get to put your hand up her shirt. it was the pursuit that drove you and weakened her. same story fast forward 20 -30 years.
No, I don't mean heart-to-heart R talk. I meant heart-to-heart 'what turns you on' talk.
By all means chase her, I am in all agreement. Women loved to be chased, it makes them feel ultra-attractive. In fact, the chase is sometimes more fun than the sex. The chase is foreplay to women. If you don't chase then you're not giving her foreplay. That's why she doesn't feel attractive, I assume.
That is why I say, chase her, then ask her what she likes in bed - the heart-to-heart. Is it visual stimulation? Some imaginative play e.g. role playing? Does she want to envision being strangers again and go flirt and do that route? That's what I mean by heart-to-heart. What turns her on. Did she have to 'win over' OM, is that why she felt attractive? That's why I am encouraging you to figure out. Because right now, it's all guesswork and you are nowhere.
Me:39 H:40 S:9 D:7 First Bomb ONS:June 07 Second Bomb OW: March 08 Separated: March 08 M:15 yrs T:18 yrs H deep into A with OW Achieved ACCEPTANCE May 30, 09
"We both agreed that it's the weekdays that kill us -- our roles as mother and father, and our jobs, reduce us to something less than (my first name) and (her first name). Neither one of us find the other very attractive during the week."
I'm not sure why you are so tied to your old POV that hasn't really gotten you anywhere. You have multiple women telling you that I am getting at something, yet you keep saying no no no. You have W telling you that the A taught her that she was a sexual person. You have a W yearning to exit the M so that she can be free. You have a W who was taught by society, and even moreso by her family evidently, that a good wife/mother is not sexual.
Just suppose I am right. If so, there is NO WAY your W will tell you this stuff. She's come about as close as she is able. It was HARD for her to write that letter, so hard she is emotionally exhausted and is shutting down because you still couldn't hear her.
Talking is not the answer. I don't think W COULD tell you what turns her on, or what she wants, or what her fantasies are right now. IF she could, she'd already have a lot more of the sexual freedom and a more robust sexual identity that she seeks. Creating a context in which she has some space for some sexual freedom is worth trying. I gave you suggestions on how you might do so. That you don't like my particular example of direction is no reason not to try the strategy in general. Pick something that is more your style.
But, food for thought. Consider your discomfort and lack of enthusiasm for a sexual performance that wouldn't be authentic for you. Now, suppose that was how sex always was for you -- an inauthentic performance... How often would you really want sex? What if I am right that that is what sex is like for your W once she is back in the wife/mother role?
How does it hurt to shift you mindset and operate under that assumption for a bit to try to help her and you? Operating under your current wife is asexual/frigid mindset has gotten you pretty much nowhere and is at odds with what all the women here are seeing and hearing in your W's actions and words.
And, if my XH had used keyloggers and bugged my phone, he would not have gained a clue about me sexuality because I was so repressed in that old inauthentic role I couldn't even google what I would have liked to have googled.
What do you lose? Let your male sexual ego take the hit and try on a different mindset.
I agree with oldtimer. Sorry Puppy...but you are making some incorrect assumptions, I'm afraid. You are assuming that your wife has not changed from the person you know. Why not just let go of that idea and TRY to explore what we are saying??
To me, it seems that maybe YOU are the one afraid to grow sexually, and that is why you refuse to accept that there might be some valid things in what OT and I and other women are saying?
Does what we are saying cause you some kind of fear that you will not be able to live up to the role we are suggesting?
Can you at least acknowledge that people DO change as they get older?
Wants to look younger...wants sexy work out clothes....your theory is that she wants to be chased and admired but not caught....my theory is that she wants to be caught, but she's married to you, and she figures you cannot give her the type of "catching" she wants....so she's looking to get caught, just not by you. That's why she wants freedom. However, what I keep saying over and over is that she CAN get the type of catching she wants from you, she just doesn't know it yet. If you could possibly open your mind a bit more to what OT and I are saying, maybe you could learn how to BE the type she wants to get caught by.
Or you could just refuse to change, refuse to accept she has changed, and keep things the way they are now, until you two end up divorced?
