P.S. Just in case Puppy thinks I'm over the top and attribute way-too-kinky desires/fantasies to his W, please raise your hand if you are a "good wife/mother" who DOES NOT have at least equally or even way more kinky desires (hopefully satisfied) or frustrated longings. My guess is that if everyone is honest here, there won't be one hand up.
That HD/LD stuff is really an old way of thinking for you. Why not try something new?
"W has a hard time being sexual in the context of a committed M or "trying M" because it puts her back in the wife/mother identity. Her only sexuality in that identity is the "good Christian woman" sexuality and a lot of her expressed sexuality toward me is really a show, intended to project who she was taught a good woman is in bed and intended to protect my ego as the big man who satisifies his W completely once he gets her in bed."
"When I reach out tentatively to her, waiting for her to reciprocate, act horny, etc..., all it does is put pressure on her to go back into her standard performance -- a performance that is both sexually stifling and sexually inauthentic. This has nothing to do with her true sexuality. So, the big puzzle here is not how to overcome her asexuality/frigidity. This is not a problem because NEITHER problem exists. She is sexually frustrated, not asexual. She is sexually isolated in the role of wife/mother, not frigid. Indeed, truth be told, she is a hot, desperately horny woman who wants to be able to be present during sex. So, the big puzzle is instead how to let her be this woman in the context of a committed M or trying M. This is not a bizarre problem. It is not a problem that arises because she is selfish or vain. It is a problem with how women of her era were raised from the time they were tiny. They were raised to hide their sexuality, be a good girl, make their man happy. (So, why isn't she pretending more and keeping me happy? Because it is tedious, unrewarding, soul draining after awhile.)
Anyway, back to the solution... How to make it comfortable her to develop a true sexual identity without dumping the M and being a cougar? First, don't judge. Second, don't demand the response I would like. Third, don't expect the response I would like. Fourth, do things that remove her responsibility for sex and for pleasing me. For instance, rather than go in for the soft-caress-see-if-she-flinches approach that just keeps flopping, I could try something new. I could instead open the bathroom door when W steps out of the shower, tell her that she will step over to the bed, bend over and put her right cheek and palms flat on the mattress, and then I will enjoy myself, telling her exactly what to do. This allows her to enjoy sex without being responsible for the dirty girl aspects and without making her perform to satisfy my needs."
If you can do that, and then introduce some new sex toys to ensure your W has new sorts of Os, then I expect you'd start finding that your W is not really LD at all.
My GAWD, that's an awful lot of assumptions.
My wife is low-desire. She's been that way for 20 years. That doesn't make her a bad person, but I'd at least rather deal with THAT reality, than a bunch of gobbledegook.
For instance, rather than go in for the soft-caress-see-if-she-flinches approach that just keeps flopping, I could try something new. I could instead open the bathroom door when W steps out of the shower, tell her that she will step over to the bed, bend over and put her right cheek and palms flat on the mattress, and then I will enjoy myself, telling her exactly what to do.
Problem #2: That's not me. I'm willing to move outside of my comfort zone, but I still need to be authentic. That isn't authentically me, so even it worked (and I personally think my wife would run out of the room, horrified), it would only have been some role-playing game that I couldn't authentically repeat with any consistency.
Puppy, I've been "low desire" for over 10 years. I thought I was frigid but now I've got it back and want it with H. Of course, now we're separated but, reading Schnarch's "Passionate Marriage" is really shedding some light and it talks a lot about expectations. And it is a quagmire. H would allude to sex and it just felt like why bother if it is a foregone conclusion. The issue is really complex and multifaceted.
I have to agree that, at least for myself, I wanted hot, grown up sex with a man who felt individuated and self-assured and H was NOT that. So, even though I am disgusted by him leaving and behaving the way he is, he is a separate and self-soothing person who I don't feel is unloading on me every time we have sex.
I hope I'm making sense. I highly recommend the book which better articulates what I am trying to say.
Puppy - you are saying she has been LD for 20 years...and you are probably correct about the first 15 of those years.
However, during the last 5 years, due to her age, her hormones have changed her into a new person with a new level of desire. In the past 2 years, she is now probably NOT LD...she is as OT said, sexually frustrated and is desiring sexual contact or attention constantly. That is exactly how I felt during my marriage at the end of it (and I could have written that letter myself, about marrying young and having had no time to play or run around). When we separated, I had no way to tell my ex-h how I was feeling without explaining it like I needed to be able to be "free" to experiment in the world, much like what your wife is saying.
What I really needed was to be free to experiment with my body, my feelings, my sexuality, my desires, my need for sexual attention, my inner most feelings....all of these needs to express these things didn't come alive fully in me until I was near 40. THEN...it burst forth from me and wouldn't stop until I found resolution to them!
My ex-h couldn't deal with it and didn't try. He assumed he could not give me what I needed.
Now I know that he could have, and what he would have needed to do. But at the time I had no way to articulate that to him. I had to experience it first! But if he had understood what I needed (and there are good resources out there) he COULD HAVE given me exactly the exploration I needed, in his safe arms. He could have helped me explore ALL of those feelings and desires!! But we both had intimacy issues (as you and your W both do, as well) and we didn't know how to go from the decent-to-good sex to WAY GOOD sexual play and exploration.
So he checked out because he was sick of me by then, saw me as a horrible person, didn't love me any more....so understandably, he didn't even really want to put the effort into that kind of new sex life with me. Can't blame him. I was a horrible wife to him. I'm just saying what seemed to me to be lack of desire for my ex-h was actually just being caused by ignorance on both of our parts about what we each wanted and needed. We needed a sex therapist. We never sought any help, and it was over.
Oldtimer - I'm with you. YES...give me a man who is assertive and wonderfully, powerfully, masculine in bed. It makes me feel supremely feminine to feel his supreme masculinity in a sexual manner. And I'm also in love with that man, and I trust him, and then all kinds of wild and crazy and kinky things happen. His masculinity has to (for the most part) drive the train toward those kinkier ideas, so I can relax and just be ravaged and taken. (Doesn't mean I can't ravage and take HIM other times! Just sayin', to be ravaged and taken by AUTHENTIC masculine energy is just plain yummmmm....)
Puppy, I do hope you can realize your wife has changed. She isn't LD any more. She is a new person. Get to know her from scratch this time!
And one last thing...Puppy, if the above "take her and ravage her" line of thinking doesn't seem applicable to your wife, maybe YOU'RE more of the one to ask HER to be more dominating??? That can be way fun too and it still requires supreme masculinity on your part.
I don't know. I don't think you can put your experience into someone else's and say they are having the same thing. I mean, she may be LD or not, I think that's why an IC would be good. It shouldn't be your job (or ours) to figure it out, but your W and an IC. My latest theory which could be totally wrong is we learn a lot from our parents and family, and maybe some of her behavior is learned from them. I don't know if that could be overcome or not, but I like to think we can change those things if we realize our issues & if we are willing to do the work.
I gotta agree with Hoosiermama. That alpha male stuff makes me nauseous. I have a feeling any man who really did it would see skid marks in the driveway.
I think it has its place. If I had to generalize, I'd say that the modern Western (particularly American) male HAS gotten too feminized, and needs to be stronger. I've focused my own personal efforts on these boards, in fact, toward helping exhort weaker men to make a stand of personal integrity, learn to draw and enforce boundaries, and to generally not do the "Little Bo-Peep" approach ("leave them alone, and they'll come home, wagging their tails behind them.").
That is in GENERAL. I do think that every relationship needs to be judged on its own dynamics, however, and I also think that a lot of Deida is just so much hooey.
I don't know. I don't think you can put your experience into someone else's and say they are having the same thing. I mean, she may be LD or not, I think that's why an IC would be good. It shouldn't be your job (or ours) to figure it out, but your W and an IC. My latest theory which could be totally wrong is we learn a lot from our parents and family, and maybe some of her behavior is learned from them.
BINGO.
Her mom and dad live platonically, giving each other only pecks on the cheek "hello", "goodbye" and "goodnight," and have never been a very affectionate family. Me, I come from a long line of huggers and kissers and lovers/not fighters.
FOO issues.
My wife did experience a brief increase in her desire after she turned 40, but it was very short-lived. She's told me she never MBs, and she really doesn't even like to hold hands or hug or kiss miss. She's just not a very "touchy" person.
However, during the last 5 years, due to her age, her hormones have changed her into a new person with a new level of desire. In the past 2 years, she is now probably NOT LD...she is as OT said, sexually frustrated and is desiring sexual contact or attention constantly.
Attention, yes. Contact, no.
What evidence do you see that makes you believe that her level of desire has changed? I've seen NO indication of that whatsoever.
to figure it out, but your W and an IC. My latest theory which could be totally wrong is we learn a lot from our parents and family, and maybe some of her behavior is learned from them. I don't know if that could be overcome or not, but I like to think we can change those things if we realize our issues & if we are willing to do the work.