"Anyway, Karen, we decided just that. My wife and I talked and we decided that we're tired of the dramatic "proclamations," and decided to just DO it -- work at it, one day at a time. If we'd been fighting or something in front of the boys, or one of us had found the need to sleep away from the house one night or something, it'd be one thing, but they really haven't been exposed to anything like that, as we've really gotten along great. So we thought this was for the best."
Brilliant
Hope you took some pics of W in the various suits, if not, there is still time next time she has one on...
Hi ya, milquetoast sissy! Wow, been trying to read all this stuff and it would wear anybody out. Goes to show you how many people care about you and "that is a good thing" (as Martha Stewart would say).
I know this may be a total shock, but I don't think I'll say a lot.....lol. Oh, who am I kidding? Well, anyway, when reading what was being said back and forth between you and W, was it my imagination or did she seem to start backing away when you sent her the letter and ended it with implying expectations of having great sex that night? Can't remember exactly how you worded it. Anyway, the very first thing that stood out to me was when I read about the renewing of the wedding vows. I was thinking....."oh no, this is not going to work" and then I saw the part about what you had planned for her when she got home that night.
I don't even know how to explain this so probably shouldn't have started it, but since I have.......Puppy, she reminded me so much of myself. I don't know why, but every time my H would make a statement like you did to your wife regarding looking forward to having sex that night, etc., it would just do something negative to me. I always felt guilty and always felt frigid b/c I just could not seem to make my body and mind do and be what I wanted it to do and what I knew my H wanted. I would beat myself up b/c I felt like a failure each time. I usually would either "freeze up" in bed or I would find some excuse to not go to bed or else just refuse him. It made both of us feel terrible. But, I took the blame.
I have to say that everything Old Timer has said really hit home with me and especially the part of the "role model". I never felt like I could loosen up and enjoy sex like I wanted to or like my H wanted b/c of this "thing" I had of not getting down and dirty (so to speak). As I told you once before, that was the thing I had with OM, even though we never met in person to make it a PA......I could be that person that I would never have been in "real life". It was a fantasy. But, why could I not be that way with my H? I don't know.
So, I suppose I said all that to go along with those that have already said....for her--any words of an expectation (like renewing wedding vows or expecting sex that night) is a "killer". She freezes up! I think the wedding vows is a huge pressure souce for her. And....maybe she likes the unplanned sex....
That last letter she wrote to you? I thought she stole it from me! It was almost word for word what I have said before. Although, thank God, I don't have that feeling now, I do understand what she is talking about. But, Puppy......it sure sounds like MLC, doesn't it? Although, this has been going on for a long time, and bless your heart.....I don't know how you have stood up under it except for the love you have for her. It is amazing.
I know that I've not said anything to be of help, but I consider you my friend and I guess I just wanted to say "something". Her words and some of her actions sounded very familiar to me. I know it was nothing new for you. We AWAW's are the pits, aren't we? My H used to be a "nice guy" also, but I ruined that. I will have to say that in spite of all I put him through and what I went through myself......things are better. I thought for a long time that we might just exsist under the same roof, but we became friends and that was a good start for us. He is such a patient man and it's a good thing b/c I could not have dealt with any pressure whatsoever.
You have been very patient, Pup, but I am wondering if the decision not to D and then having great sex after such a "dry" period, did not set those "expectations" rolling in your mind. Then she kind of freaked out. Then there we go again, right?
Okay, I'm not really saying anything new here, so I'll close for now. Just wanted you to know that I care a lot about your life and happiness. You and W are in my prayers.
Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Hey Puppy - Really good stuff in the last few weeks. I like to hear where you are headed. After reading Michelle's Marriage Map again, I get the feeling that your wife and you could be slowly approaching stage 5.
Just keep going day by day and enjoy the time you have with your wife and kids together. You are an inspiration to many here.
You have been very patient, Pup, but I am wondering if the decision not to D and then having great sex after such a "dry" period, did not set those "expectations" rolling in your mind. Then she kind of freaked out. Then there we go again, right?
Sandi,
I think you've hit the nail on the head, with a lot of what you said, but especially the above. My wife used the "e" word probably more than a dozen times in our conversations. I do struggle with how to be flirty during the day (which us men are supposed to do), and yet NOT have that put "expectations" on her. And remember, my wife is one who NEEDS to be flirted with, and validated, and so much wants to be thought of as sexy and attractive. But yet when I do that, I put expectations on her.
Arrrrgggggg!!!!!!
After spending a real nice day together yesterday, she pulled away again last nite. Fell asleep early (10:15) on the couch, was cool to me when we went to bed, and when she sat up in bed this morning to get ready to get up, I playfully grabbed the back of her t-shirt and forcefully tried to pull her back down into the bed. She said "No, stop -- I have to go to the bathroom, real bad!!!" and so I let her go. She stayed in there an awfully long time (my imagination tells me she was hoping I'd just get up while she was in there), and when she finally came out and I was still in bed, she asked me "are you getting up?" I said "No," and she did get back into bed, but immediately announced "my stomach is bothering me this morning."
Personally, I think you do have a great attitude about it all. I do agree with Sandi that maybe best not to be too aggressive, I guess, flirting without necessarily ending in what you want it to. But I know you've been working on that.
I agree about the expectations too, you've gone from zero to maybe 100 in a few days. Scary for anyone I think. But on the other hand, I think your W clearly has sex issues related to M that she needs to work on in IC. Hopefully she's getting an IC that knows a good bit about that? You shouldn't have to be on pins and needles and all for long-term or what is that. I mean sex between 2 married people should be fun and not such a big deal.
I guess this is just me, but if you want sex every day and she wants it once a week or whatever, did you ever discuss a compromise, say 2x or 3x a week? Maybe that's crazy of me to say, but you say you are best friends all the time so it doesn't seem so hard to work out a compromise. If she can't then I guess IC might be the answer or maybe even an MC that specializes in sex issues. Let the IC or MC kind of deal with those issues, and just enjoy each day together. Karen
I guess this is just me, but if you want sex every day and she wants it once a week or whatever, did you ever discuss a compromise, say 2x or 3x a week? Maybe that's crazy of me to say, but you say you are best friends all the time so it doesn't seem so hard to work out a compromise.
Karen,
You would think. But if you spent some time on the SSM message board (or any other "clashing libidos" type forum, you'd see that this is rarely the case. The LD (lower-desire) partner always controls the sexual relationship, because if -- as you say -- the HD (higher-desire) partner wants sex 5x/week, and the LD partner wants 1x/week, you're going to have it 1x/week, I guaran-damn-tee you. It's why I left that forum, because it's all VERY discouraging, and sad, and I've never ONCE seen a successful outcome unless you have BOTH partners admitting that there is a problem and willing to work at it -- HARD -- and even then, the success stories are rare.
HDs don't want "mercy sex," and the 2nd or 3rd time per week that such a compromise would suggest inevitably ends up feeling like that to the HD spouse.
That HD/LD stuff is really an old way of thinking for you. Why not try something new?
"W has a hard time being sexual in the context of a committed M or "trying M" because it puts her back in the wife/mother identity. Her only sexuality in that identity is the "good Christian woman" sexuality and a lot of her expressed sexuality toward me is really a show, intended to project who she was taught a good woman is in bed and intended to protect my ego as the big man who satisifies his W completely once he gets her in bed."
"When I reach out tentatively to her, waiting for her to reciprocate, act horny, etc..., all it does is put pressure on her to go back into her standard performance -- a performance that is both sexually stifling and sexually inauthentic. This has nothing to do with her true sexuality. So, the big puzzle here is not how to overcome her asexuality/frigidity. This is not a problem because NEITHER problem exists. She is sexually frustrated, not asexual. She is sexually isolated in the role of wife/mother, not frigid. Indeed, truth be told, she is a hot, desperately horny woman who wants to be able to be present during sex. So, the big puzzle is instead how to let her be this woman in the context of a committed M or trying M. This is not a bizarre problem. It is not a problem that arises because she is selfish or vain. It is a problem with how women of her era were raised from the time they were tiny. They were raised to hide their sexuality, be a good girl, make their man happy. (So, why isn't she pretending more and keeping me happy? Because it is tedious, unrewarding, soul draining after awhile.)
Anyway, back to the solution... How to make it comfortable her to develop a true sexual identity without dumping the M and being a cougar? First, don't judge. Second, don't demand the response I would like. Third, don't expect the response I would like. Fourth, do things that remove her responsibility for sex and for pleasing me. For instance, rather than go in for the soft-caress-see-if-she-flinches approach that just keeps flopping, I could try something new. I could instead open the bathroom door when W steps out of the shower, tell her that she will step over to the bed, bend over and put her right cheek and palms flat on the mattress, and then I will enjoy myself, telling her exactly what to do. This allows her to enjoy sex without being responsible for the dirty girl aspects and without making her perform to satisfy my needs."
If you can do that, and then introduce some new sex toys to ensure your W has new sorts of Os, then I expect you'd start finding that your W is not really LD at all.
