Ian--I trust that some will grasp the larger picture and use the philosophy in a positive way, while a few will think it involves calling people "sissies" on a different thread. 'Nuff said.
M60 H52 D20 M14 yrs OW-old gf from 1986 bomb-5/18/08 H filed for D-9/10/08 D final 4/24/09 xH remarried (not OW) 2012
Puppy, the secret to real intimacy is to be able to stay detached. This actually has a lot to do with the brand of alpha-maleness that Frank-D is trying to get at. (Though, you don't have to stuff or hide your feelings to do so. A real alpha-male can share feelings directly precisely because they are individuated/detached.)
Exactly. That's what it's all about. As David Deida says in 'The way of the superior man', do not become part of her intensity.
Stay With Her Intensity—To a Point When a woman gets emotionally intense, a mediocre man wants to calm her down and discuss it, or leave and come back later when she is "sane." A superior man penetrates her mood with imperturbable love and unwavering consciousness. If she still refuses to live more fully in love, after a time, he lets her go.
Tolerating Her Leads to Resenting Her
Don't Force the Feminine to Make Decisions.
A man abandons responsibility by expecting that his woman will always make her own decisions and then be accountable for the results. This expectation is a withholding of his masculine gift. It puts a woman in the position of magnifying her own masculine. It is good for some women to learn to animate their masculine capacity to make a decision and stick with it. But if a man abnegates his responsibility to provide his woman with the gift of masculine clarity and decisiveness, then she will become chronically sharp, angular, and distrustful of his love. She will cease surrendering in love with him, cease trusting his masculine capacity, and, instead, become her own man. Your woman asks you for input, and you say, "Whatever you want to do is fine with me." This is the statement of a friend, not a lover. As friends, you want to treat each other fairly and give each other space and independence. As lovers, you and your woman are more than just friends. You are playing the full dynamic of masculine and feminine polarity. Wouldn't you like your woman to be a goddess and offer you her feminine gifts? To evoke them, you must offer her your masculine gifts. One of your most valuable gifts is the ability to see all the options and make a decision based on this view of all the potential outcomes.
etc...
Think beyond the box you are in. Men and women are different. Celebrate the difference.
Look into the resources we've sent you, with love. this is NOT about power or control. It's about understanding who we are as men and women.
Don't you want to know that? If you think your W is the 'same' as you and she thinks you are the 'same' as her, well you're both wrong. You are a man, wired by biology to do certain things. As such, she is a woman who is also wired to be a woman.
What we should do, as men and women, is learn about our differences. When I speak of 'alpha male' I'm only seeing your side of things.
She needs a mentor who can help her through her 'women' side of things.
However, I guarantee you that if you start 'manning up' things will change
You know that, you did it before. When you confronted her about her affair and other issues. She totally responded to the man, you.
Puppy, your 'handle' is weak.
It shows the men here that you have chosen to be a 'nice guy'
I want nothing but success for you.
Do a search on 'alpha male' on this web site.
I am going to post to other 'old timers' on this website who 'get' the alpha male concept. I hope they will get on your threads. You are a good man, and deserve our questions
stay well, keep keeping on.
your friend, frank_d
Friend,
What do you know about me, or my situation, beyond this current thread? You make an awful lot of assumptions. Considering that I'm "to the right" of 95% of the people on the forum, to the point where I got banned for saying so, this is pretty comical to be accused of "going soft" here.
I gotta agree with Hoosiermama. That alpha male stuff makes me nauseous. I have a feeling any man who really did it would see skid marks in the driveway.
I think it has its place. If I had to generalize, I'd say that the modern Western (particularly American) male HAS gotten too feminized, and needs to be stronger. I've focused my own personal efforts on these boards, in fact, toward helping exhort weaker men to make a stand of personal integrity, learn to draw and enforce boundaries, and to generally not do the "Little Bo-Peep" approach ("leave them alone, and they'll come home, wagging their tails behind them.").
That is in GENERAL. I do think that every relationship needs to be judged on its own dynamics, however, and I also think that a lot of Deida is just so much hooey.
Frank_D--Sorry, but a good percentage of people--women and men--find this superior male, make-decisions-for-women stuff offensive BS. And no, never have I claimed to speak for all women. But if I had had to depend on men in my life for leadership I'd be a quivering mass of helpless jelly and my daughter would be living in a homeless shelter. If it works for you, then fine. But it is offensive when you denigrate other opinions because you're being an alpha male--particularly women on these boards who have taken no end of crap from their husbands and managed to hold their families together single-handedly. Somewhat reminiscent of my rat terrier marking his territory, actually.
eloquent.
sg Love is PATIENT, love is KIND, LOVE never fails / DB since 2001
I'm sorry I didn't respond quicker, but I needed some uninterrupted time. I still don' t have it but oh well.
First of all I have to tell you how much it meant to me to know how much you really love me. Through all of the garbage we've been through, sometimes it's easy to forget that part. I do feel the bond that you also feel. I guess that bond is what keeps us coming back to this. The bond that just won't allow us to call it quits. Yes, I think there is a little fear mixed in, but if we didn't love each other, there wouldn't be a bond at all.
I want to explain the "fear' I said I have. We talked the other night at (restaurant), and we mentioned how I went from living with my parents to getting married and living with you. I have NEVER had time to find out who (wife's first name) really is. I was, (wife's first name), the daughter who lived at home, to becoming, (wife's first name) the wife, and then (wife's first name) the mother. I missed going away to college and living on my own and learning what it's like to just be "me". I feel like that is the part that causes my restless nature. It has nothing to do with not loving you, but everything to do with trying to find myself. When kids go away to school, they really learn what they are made of and learn so many of life's lessons. It helps them to grow and become the person they are to be someday. It teaches them confidence. When they are finally ready to comitt to someone in marriage, they are truly ready to give up the single life and live alongside someone. I wish so bad that I had gone away when I was younger, or lived by myself for awhile. Maybe it wouldn't be coming back to haunt me now. Although divorce was scarey, I have to admit that I was looking forward to being a single person so that I could experience what I didn't when I was younger (and I was also sad because I didn't want to be away from you and at times the kids). I'm totally letting things all out to you here, so I hope you don't take it personally or get upset by what I say in this email. (Puppy), what scares the hell out of me, is that while I do love you, and I love our family and don't want to split up the family, I honestly don't know if I will ever NOT feel like this. If I don't have the "experience" I missed long ago, and never truly find out who I am, will I ever feel content and happy? Or will this feeling just continue to creep in and once again show its ugly head? Maybe a counselor can help me to get a handle on these feelings, I don't know.
But anyway, what I would like to say to the kids on Saturday evening is this.
"We know that you have all felt that at times something was not right between mommy and daddy. And we should have come to you all a long time ago and leveled with you but we didn't want to upset you. For a while we have been having some problems, some have been serious ones, and yes, we even talked about divorce. The reason we wanted to speak to all of you tonight is to tell you that while we have marital problems, we are trying to work them out. We can't guarantee that everything will work out, but we want all of you to know that we love you with all our hearts, and we are trying very hard to fix our problems. Its important to us that you know what is going on and that we are trying to make things work. No matter what happens in the end, we both will ALWAYS be here for all of you, and will ALWAYS love you." whatever the outcome between mommy and daddy, we will ALL be ok".
Regarding the renewal of vows. I have thought long and hard about it, and I personally would like to hold off on that. I just don't feel I'm emotionally ready to do that yet. Perhaps after I've met with a counselor I might feel different. But if we decide to do that, I want to feel 100% ready. That is not something I would take lightly. This doesn't mean I'm not committed to working on our marriage, because I am. I just don't feel that I'm ready for that step yet. I also believe that before we even know if things are going to work out for us, renewing our vows would send a message that everything is great with the kids. I don't want to lead them along or god forbid crush them IF things don't work out between us. I hope you understand. I need to be in a better place emotionally before I can do that with all my heart. If things work out maybe we can renew our vows in connection with our 25th wedding anniversary.
(Puppy), we've been together a long, long time. Every memory has us in it. It's not easy to give up on that which is probably why we haven't completely thrown in the towel. We are the best of friends, and I do enjoy being with you. I just hope and pray that we can fix this.
I love you, (Wife)
We just had a nice 60-90 minute talk. We took the boys out for bbq after S12's basketball practice, and then I asked the fetching Mrs. Puppy to join me on the pool deck for a glass of wine. She passed on the wine, but we had a nice talk. About EVERYTHING.
Bottom line? It's the EXPECTATIONS that we each have. When we tried to pin down just why it was that we had such a great time last weekend, and had the deep connection, it was because we had TOTALLY LET GO of any expection of each other as husband and wife. We just WERE, just being each other's friend, listening, talking, and connecting.
I asked her "Do you think it's that we each look at each other, and think 'God, I'm really disappointing him/her' (which has been what my theory has been all along about what 'The It' is)," and she said "Yes, EXACTLY! That's it!"
She want something for herself, as you said -- she talked at length about that -- and she wants to stop being defined by The State of the Marriage. WAY too much analyzing; WAY too much agonizing, and it's gotten to where we can't just ENJOY each other anymore.
I think she's right.
Anyway, it was a good talk, and I feel good about the nice e-mail she sent me and now the talk tonite. I had to suck it out of her, but once I got her going, it all flowed out.
There is a line from Fireproof you need to hear. I do not remember the exact set up to it, but the one firefighter says to Kirk Cameron's character
"you have to lead your heart". Do not let your heart take control. Allow your mind to control your heart. You will be able to love her without expectations or assumptions. I knwo it is hard, I struggle with it, too, but it can be done. I think you are the Pup to do it!
Good luck and stand strong.
Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~ SMW
M40/H36 T16/M14 4K B2/08 S4/08 current
Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance. I Corinthians 13:7
