That being said, there was increased openness/vulnerability on your part. It is NORMAL for the other person to withdraw a bit. YOU did the same thing when you first got the email from her. There is some amount of emotional distance between the two of you that you are both comfortable with, say it is 10 units, but it really needs to be at 3 units for a strong M. She moved toward you one unit, so you moved away one unit at first, maintaining the status quo. Then you adjusted, saw her one unit and raised her one. So she backed away. This will go back and forth as you seek new equilibriums while inching closer together.
Puppy -- I meant downward turn in tone on your thread toward your W in general, rather than any particular comment by you or anyone else. When you didn't get what everyone would have liked for you to get, there was a quick shift in tone that I don't think was very helpful. So, step away from the negative vibes, lol...
What if you instead actually say outloud, though it can be to yourself, a few times in a confident and sincere voice: "I was so hurt last night after I exposed by heart to W and got nothing back. I wanted to feel love and instead I felt a desparate emptiness. I was soooo sad and scared. It really is terrifying to open myself to these emotional risks, but it is my choice, and I think the risks are worth it because of the potential for a great M that I see."
I guess that's because I DON'T see it, Oldtimer. I mean, I know the potential is THERE, but I only see it to the degree that my wife is sincere about her issues and wants to join me in working at this thing. That's why I was hopeful this past weekend -- she seemed sincere. Her pulling away since shows me that she isn't, and therefore I end up NOT hopeful -- at all -- and therefore I would never risk the kind of pain and loneliness and hurt you describe in such a statement.
" I'm getting tired of her yanking my heart back every time I've successfully detached, and then doing nothing with it. Do you know many people on these boards NEVER successfully detach, emotionally? They try and they try, and they just can't do it. I've done it four, five, six times! And each time, I let myself get sucked right back in, only to get my heart squashed again. I'm not saying that's happened yet, but I can SEE it happening again, and I don't know what to do about it. \:\("
Puppy, the secret to real intimacy is to be able to stay detached. This actually has a lot to do with the brand of alpha-maleness that Frank-D is trying to get at. (Though, you don't have to stuff or hide your feelings to do so. A real alpha-male can share feelings directly precisely because they are individuated/detached.)
If you SEE it happening again, why not be direct about it: "I gotta say, I see us slipping into old patterns and I don't like it. Count me out."
"That's why I was hopeful this past weekend -- she seemed sincere. Her pulling away since shows me that she isn't"
That is a huge assumption. If you want certainty and blind unwavering commitment, you may as well give up now.
You WILL both have doubts, there will be movement forward and back, and you WERE very hurt. Acknowledge the risks, accept the consequences, and CHOOSE whether to proceed in light of the risks. If you won't risk the pain, loneliness, and hurt, then move on with the D, for without embracing the risk, there will be no chance of the intimacy you both seek.
Your words reek of sliding back to being the victim here. Stop the slide. You don't like the vicious circle, so stop joining in.
Where did anyone say to push Fireproof down anyone's throat?
I was agreeing with you that it was best watched alone... Too many people on these boards conspire about how to make the WAS watch it to finally see the light and change their behavior. Instead, the message should be about one's own power rather than controlling another.
Have you seen this book -- Reinventing your Life by Jeffrey Young??
It might be a great thing to get two copies. It includes various worksheets and so on, quizzes, guidance on how to change. The idea is that it allows you to identify "life traps" that keep you stuck in the same old problems. Entitlement and Abandonment issue might both be problems in your M. It might help you both understand yourselves and each other better, and find real ways to change.
Fun, easy read actually, I really enjoyed it and found it incredibly useful. And the stuff on Entitlement especially is worth the cost $20 for two copies from Amazon.
Speaking as a woman doesn't make you a spokesperson for all women.
Speaking as a man doesn't make you a spokesperson for ANY women, so you might wanna lose the 'tude.
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
I know the potential is THERE, but I only see it to the degree that my wife is sincere about her issues and wants to join me in working at this thing. That's why I was hopeful this past weekend -- she seemed sincere. Her pulling away since shows me that she isn't, and therefore I end up NOT hopeful -- at all -- and therefore I would never risk the kind of pain and loneliness and hurt you describe in such a statement.
It's a vicious circle.
While I do SO understand where you're coming from considering where you've been ... real life doesn't work that way. A person doesn't commit or recommit to a path and then continue straight up the mountain with no detours or sprained ankles. I think it's a great mistake to invalidate her sincerity of last weekend based on her current pullback. People wax and wane; it's what they do. Especially if they're trying to undo some long-snarled emotional knots/habits.
If you are so injured and drained of patience by her past responses, the affair, etc that every setback causes you to lose hope and faith in her as a person or at least in her intentions toward you ... I understand. Many people wouldn't have held on as long as you have. But still .... if that's what you find when you look in your heart, I think you have to let her go, because as a flawed human she *cannot* win if those are the rules of the game.
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
If you are so injured and drained of patience by her past responses, the affair, etc that every setback causes you to lose hope and faith in her as a person or at least in her intentions toward you ... I understand.
Maybe that IS where I am. Maybe that's why my fuse is so short now.
I wouldn't doubt the sincerity of last weekend based on her current pullback, EXCEPT for the fact that she's done this a half a dozen times before, and always when some gun is to her head. This week, it was our 2nd appt. with the mediator (scheduled for today), and we were to talk to our sons (tomorrow). It's like she reaches out to me, tries to see if my heart is still hers, then -- once assured -- she pulls away again. And she ONLY does this when faced with some ugly consequences.
My head hurts. My heart hurts. I'm completely and utterly embarrassed to face my parents, siblings and close friends who have witnessed no less than FIVE "on-again/off-again" flip-flops from me.
Perhaps you should BOTH try a little less All or Nothing -- instead try your best to grow a relationship that is good for both of you, with all the risks and potential benefits that entails.
That means no renewal of vows right now. It means no guilt tripping each other into doing the "right thing." It means taking a try and see approach.
And, let her close some of the intimacy/commitment gap sometimes...
Be OK, see what happens today and this weekend. Give her a chance to reach toward you.
