.... just because there's a certain level of validation she "needs", it doesn't mean it's something healthy for her to have. External validation, at the end of the day, is nothing more than a pretty crutch if it's doing for you what you can't do for yourself.
IC -- GOOD IC -- for her is probably essential to break the cycle.
Choc, I'm really glad you've BOTH apparently pulled back from the brink and are genuinely trying.
I'll second that! I hadn't thought of it that way, but that's the crux of the matter--she needs to be able to validate herself. Nothing else will ever be enough until she can do that herself. It's a learned skill.
M60 H52 D20 M14 yrs OW-old gf from 1986 bomb-5/18/08 H filed for D-9/10/08 D final 4/24/09 xH remarried (not OW) 2012
Puppy, your sitch is confusing to me. On the one hand, I know you love her so much and every time there is a chance at a full reconciliation you are elated. On the other hand, you seem to be so full of contempt for her and truly feel she is an entitled beast.
So I just don't get it sometimes. If she is truly NPD and a beast, why do you even want her?
And if she is not really those things and she is actually just a bit messed up, then why do you not have more compassion for her?
I know what hoosier said is true...and that we all need to validate ourselves...but that isn't really what I was getting at. I was getting at the fact that she may have real, legitimate needs which you are not helping her receive. I know you are familiar with MBuilders...have you also read their EN questionaire and other articles and questionaires? I am just trying to point out that she is clearly acting like a woman who "needs something". Now, as I said in the first paragraph...sometimes you act like what she needs might just be something legitmate, and other times you act like she is simply a narcissist.
I know you know a bit of my story...so you know that I also want and need constant attention from my fiance...and no matter how anyone else may feel that this is a need for validation, it isn't. For me, it is a sexual need and is part of my sexual fulfillment. And granted...I give him constant assurance even if he doesn't need it, I chase him, I make him feel loved and wanted and sexually fulfilled, I make sure he knows he has my attention and I am constantly attracted to him...so it goes both ways. Both of us are very confident people, too. I don't need his validation to make me feel better as a person. I need it in order to be turned on all the time for him. Its different.
I realize too, that you have been needing and wanting compliments and validation from HER and she has failed you in this way, too. So what I fear is happening here is that you are both in a stale mate...I won't do it because he/she is failing me at it.
(1) Just step away from the W bashing, it isn't helpful, and it includes a lot of assumptions that may well be false.
(2) I agree your W is afraid of having a lousy sex life. I urge you also to start with a beginner's mind. If sex with you was all that hot for her, it would probably be less of a problem. Yes, you are right, just like all men who have lousy sex lives with their W's, you are overconfident that she loves it when you do it. You are probably mistaken. This HUGELY contributes to her being stuck in a sexual persona that is not very fulfilling. She likely doesn't want to let you down further by letting you know that her enthusiasm has been at least somewhat faked. Women are taught to be caretakers of the male sexual ego here. This is pretty standard stuff. Why not try assuming the opposite? Make a game of it. After her standard "O", say "OK, I know it may be too hard, but let me try to make you O a few more times in different ways." This gives her permission to just enjoy the attempt without the pressure of delivering a fake O to protect your ego.
(3) I agree that W probably hasn't shared her authentic sexuality with you. However, I disagree that it is likely because she expects you to mindread, etc... On the contrary, she probably thinks there is NO WAY you could ever guess just how deviant are her sexual thoughts. She probably is ashamed and embarrassed by her own fantasies and kinkiness. She probably thinks you could never accept such a depraved woman. This too is pretty standard stuff for a woman who has lost her sexual identity because it is incompatible with the "good wife/mother" role. You throw in your religious be-a-good-girl pressure, and she is very likely to feel that she could NEVER have a hot, kinky sex life with you. Do you really think she could summon the courage to say: "Gee Puppy, what I really want is for you to push me on to my hands and knees by the side of the bed, strap a vibrating rabbit toy to me while you tickle my a@@ and f#$%( my mouth before you go down on me and then f@#$ me hard while I'm coming, and oh, if you could, please talk about how this is like me taking multiple C@##$cks from you at once, and add a little spanking to keep me in line." Yeah right, I don't think she's going to put that on the table without A LOT of you making her being a dirty girl being OK. And pressuring her to work through your M/sex life to be a good role model for her Ds is not going to get you there.
4) I really urge you to take the pressure off W. You are pretty heavy-handed with the COMMITMENT and really trying and vow renewals, etc... You may not see it. Most here may not see it because they are on the LBS side of things. But it is a lot of pressure and a lot of blame stuff. If you are really going to reconcile, it needs to be done in a context of freedom. IMO, you'd be much better off saying: "Let's wait to renew our vows until we both know that we want to commit to this M for the rest of our lives. For now, let's commit to seeing if we can find a vibrant, passionate M that enriches both our lives. If we can't, then that would be OK. Though it would be sad, we would both be OK, it wouldn't make either of us evil. What is important is that we both wind up with great lives, whatever that turns out to be."
5) I actually think W's reaction last night was more due to the pressure/guilting woven into your email, than from your increased openness. That being said, there was increased openness/vulnerability on your part. It is NORMAL for the other person to withdraw a bit. YOU did the same thing when you first got the email from her. There is some amount of emotional distance between the two of you that you are both comfortable with, say it is 10 units, but it really needs to be at 3 units for a strong M. She moved toward you one unit, so you moved away one unit at first, maintaining the status quo. Then you adjusted, saw her one unit and raised her one. So she backed away. This will go back and forth as you seek new equilibriums while inching closer together.
6) Try to quit thinking of W as a blackhole who can never get enough attention from you. Instead, think of it in LL terms -- she needs something different.
7) Please don't push Fireproof. If someone thinks Fireproof is valuable, the lesson they should take from it is what they can do to improve the M, not what they can shove down someone else's throat while shaking a finger saying "this is how you SHOULD be..."
8) Any chance of a take-charge quickie for W at lunch?
9) Use the BIG RED STOP SIGN when you feel the old thought patterns start to crop up.
10) The best thing you can do is try your best to have the great M that you want. Same for W. Give you both permission to fail if you want a chance of success.
I don't feel that SHE is a beast; I feel that her sense of ENTITLEMENT is. It is a flawed part of her character that can either be improved upon with introspection and hard work (and counseling) on her part, or it can be kept status quo, or -- worse -- it can be "fed" by others (like me) and made worse.
You don't give an alcoholic more to drink, and you don't keep asking the gambling addict if he wants to go play the slots.
I do have compassion for her -- to a point. I have it when she is vulnerable, and shares her fears and feelings with me, and her self-knowledge of the things she KNOWS she needs to work at. But then when she doesn't do it, and pulls away yet again, it makes me angry, and sad, and disillusioned, and I want to give up.
She is not a "bit" messed up, DQ, she's a lot messed up. The NPD is real, and our long-term marital problems are real. I'm getting tired of her yanking my heart back every time I've successfully detached, and then doing nothing with it. Do you know many people on these boards NEVER successfully detach, emotionally? They try and they try, and they just can't do it. I've done it four, five, six times! And each time, I let myself get sucked right back in, only to get my heart squashed again. I'm not saying that's happened yet, but I can SEE it happening again, and I don't know what to do about it.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
"Puppy, your sitch is confusing to me. On the one hand, I know you love her so much and every time there is a chance at a full reconciliation you are elated. On the other hand, you seem to be so full of contempt for her and truly feel she is an entitled beast."
DQ makes another great point...
Puppy, it has often seemed to me that you externalize your hurt by becoming very critical of your W as well.
What if you instead actually say outloud, though it can be to yourself, a few times in a confident and sincere voice: "I was so hurt last night after I exposed by heart to W and got nothing back. I wanted to feel love and instead I felt a desparate emptiness. I was soooo sad and scared. It really is terrifying to open myself to these emotional risks, but it is my choice, and I think the risks are worth it because of the potential for a great M that I see."
ummmm, speaking as a woman...NOT every woman NEEDS an "alpha male." Many of us would prefer a cooperative partnership. And NOT to be told what we need.
That's great that you feel that way. Speaking as a woman doesn't make you a spokesperson for all women.
Please take the time to look into any of the resources I mentioned. Then you'd understand that being 'Alpha Male' does NOT mean 'tell someone what to do'. It mean not sucking up but instead leading and being a decision maker as PART of a relationship.
And to clarify, I mentioned OM and the affair because as David Cunningham (and others) have pointed out many times, women have affairs because they get an Endorphin 'high' because of the 'newness' and the feeling that they are getting something from it they were lacking in their relationship.
Someone posted that Puppy seems to look at her with contempt. There may be some truth to that. I don't know. What I do know is that an Alpha Male would not look at her with anything but protective love and leadership.
It has nothing to do with control, which by the way is a lot of what I see here. Puppy is focused on controlling the situation instead of letting it control itself while he remains solid and on track.
Don't you think that as soon as she sees the 'need' for him to cater to her emotions she runs away? It should be 'Ok, let's do this and this and this' but then it seems to turn in to letters and discussions of vulnerability where he should be listening and validating but not showing weakness.
I think too much emphasis is being placed on Puppy doing all these 'sensitive' things which hasn't worked before. Break the cycle.
