A month or so I approached the idea of Retrouvaille - told her about it and asked if would be willing to go. She is religious (brought up Catholic, goes to church) but her answer was as follows:
"No, this is sponsored by the church, and I know that the goal will be to save the M at all costs. I am not going to go to any sort of counseling or retreats where the goal is to convince me to stay married."
That is not the goal of Retro. How does she "know" this?
She doesn't know. She wouldn't even look at it.
This is just her mindset right now.
Me 42, W 39, S8, S6, S2 M 11y, A & ILYBNILWY 11/08 Walking away from a bad situation.
Gotcha, FWIW I got the same reaction. It's pressure.
M22,H45,W45 S21/18D12 Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
After the discussion earlier, I have kept coming back to and thinking about this post, in particular the sentence I bolded.
Originally Posted By: LuckyGirl
I also think that she is staying faithful to the OM, even if she isn't involved with him anymore, and that is why she isn't ML with you or why your sexually charged compliments don't feel right. She has internally rejected you as *her* man.
I think that this is completely true.
My W has not completely rejected me:
- She still sees me as a friend. She asks me to do things together with her - dates, movies, TV, etc. - She still sees me as someone to comfort her. She snuggles, asks for backrubs, etc - She still sees me as the father for her children. She happily spends time together with me and them, and relies on me to help her with them. We parent well together. - She still sees me as a partner in her life. She is dependent on my income, concerned about my career, has offered to move to a new place if I need to find a better job, etc. - She still cares about me, looks after my health, etc.
She has just rejected me as "her man"
She has said this outright on a number of occasions: "I am not attracted to me and have not been for a long time"
I know it is not physical. I am not unattractive and she has confirmed this.
It is emotional. Attraction is completely emotional, and she has locked me out of this part of her emotions.
Last edited by Thinker; 05/14/0902:28 AM.
Me 42, W 39, S8, S6, S2 M 11y, A & ILYBNILWY 11/08 Walking away from a bad situation.
Your woman is challenging you to get help. She is done asking, she now has played the D card. It's all in the script for her. You now have a choice. Sweep things under the rug or deal with your issues. It's all in the LBS script. The Snake Busting is much harder than Divorce Busting. You are worth it. You can handle it. Cheers Coach
I have been reading through "Passionate Marriage" and he has been focused on two topics: - Differentiation - Ones ability to maintain a clear sense of self when loved ones are pressuring for conforming and sameness.
and
- Self Validated Intimacy - the willingness and ability to open oneself up and be intimate without requiring validation from reciprocity or validation from your partner.
I find that these concepts really strike home with me emotionally. Particularly Self Validated Intimacy.
Schnarch wrote the following paragraph which I find particularly Painful:
I don't expect you to agree with me. You weren't put on the face of this earth to validate and reinforce me. But I want you to love me -- and you can't really do that if you don't know me. I don't want your rejection -- but I must face that possibility if I'm ever to feel accepted or secure with you. It's time to show myself to you and confront my separateness and mortality. One day when we are no longer together on this earth, I want to know you knew me.
Every time I read that paragraph I feel a yearning that is so strong it is physically painful, matched with an equal and opposite paralyzing fear.
So of course I am probing at the wound, reading it again and again.
What is it about that paragraph?
My answer so far is as follows: For so long I have carefully thought and analyzed before ever asking, saying or doing; fearing, predicting and controlling the response from those around me. It has kept me from really connecting.
I don't want to do that any more!
I know where it comes from, but I don't know how to stop. I don't know where to start.
I don't know what would happen if I really started to honestly open up right now with my W. It certainly would not be pretty. I am very good at being in control, but crap at relaxing control without losing control; expressing emotions without becoming a wreck.
Still working through it...
Me 42, W 39, S8, S6, S2 M 11y, A & ILYBNILWY 11/08 Walking away from a bad situation.
It is no easy endeavor. But, you gotta think that if you're so good at control, you'll be able to turn it inward and control the control. Especially if you think before you speak and act... you give yourself time to think it out.
I just love that book. I'm so glad it is "speaking" to you.
Oh, and to clarify my comment about "internally rejecting you as her man." I don't think that this is in her conscious. I think it is in her subconscious because of the fog and false "love" that she had with OM. Because she is focused on him somewhere deeply internal, you are the afterthought in that same place within her. Even though she consciously knows that you ARE her man and her H, there is something in her that's in reserve...
My basic point is that she doesn't mean the harm that she is causing you. I'm sure she's said that, and I think she means it.
Oh, and to clarify my comment about "internally rejecting you as her man." I don't think that this is in her conscious. I think it is in her subconscious because of the fog and false "love" that she had with OM. Because she is focused on him somewhere deeply internal, you are the afterthought in that same place within her. Even though she consciously knows that you ARE her man and her H, there is something in her that's in reserve...
My basic point is that she doesn't mean the harm that she is causing you. I'm sure she's said that, and I think she means it.
My guess. Though, I'm always willing to be wrong.
Lucky
I think you are right here. I agree.
I also think it has to do with her equating me with her own long-suppressed anger and dissatisfaction with her own life.
But still, it shows me that this intimacy is the barrier I have to overcome.
Now just "How?"
That's where I am thinking. What do I need to change about myself in order to allow the wall to fall?
Last edited by Thinker; 05/14/0903:48 PM.
Me 42, W 39, S8, S6, S2 M 11y, A & ILYBNILWY 11/08 Walking away from a bad situation.
For so long I have carefully thought and analyzed before ever asking, saying or doing; fearing, predicting and controlling the response from those around me. It has kept me from really connecting.
Using my Dr Phil voice, "So how's that been working for you?"
Great quote from here: "Control is overrated." We give ourselves to much credit when it comes to control.
Quote:
I don't want to do that any more!
I know where it comes from, but I don't know how to stop. I don't know where to start.
So change it! If you know where it comes from then dispute it. Is it really real? Challenge those negative beliefs. Then try something different and see what works. TEA Thought proceeds Emotion, Emotion proceeds Action. Therefore change your thinking.
Why has the DBing helped you?
Why does Schnarch resonate with you?
Quote:
I don't know what would happen if I really started to honestly open up right now with my W
You would create a emotional connection that would be more "real" than anything in your M until this point. Love yourself in spite of your faults. Be the best Thinker you can. You can handle it. Cheers
M22,H45,W45 S21/18D12 Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
This is profound, and I think very well could be at play here and in many of the sitches on this board: "I also think it has to do with her equating me with her own long-suppressed anger and dissatisfaction with her own life."
The "HOW" takes practice. (Dare I say, especially for a man who has lived up to society's expectations and norms of what a man is his whole life.) Schnarch suggests some techniques (hugging 'til relaxed, eyes open ML) but they require that your partner wants to work with you. What I'm hearing from you is that you first need to start opening up in general without measuring the possible outcome/reaction of what you put out there. It is NOT easy to eliminate the self-protective screening mechanism that's been in place since your childhood.
Therapy sessions by nature require that you let it flow in order to get the best help possible. You can practice there. Also, try to spend time with your W alone and TALK. About anything. Just TALK and practice letting your words reflect who YOU are.
By the way, be prepared... Being open and intimate makes you more vulnerable, but the rewards and connection with humanity is SO WORTH IT!
