I have some very strong opinions and thoughts here, but I thought I'd ask for yours first. Help, anyone?? I'm willing to do something differently than what I've done in the past (I think I HAVE to, otherwise you've got that "Definition of Stupidity" thing), but is that "something" trying to better understand her feelings and fears, or is it calling her on her bullchit??
Puppy
Well... first and foremost she seems to be recognizing and willing to listen to reason. I would validate her feelings (you don't have to agree, but feelings can't be wrong and she can't be made to feel they are wrong) and work on keeping the communication going.
Something similar with my W, instead of 'it' I referred to it as the "I dunno" because when she would get in her moods and I tried to communicate it was "I dunno" to everything I asked.
Still is. Not sure how to break through her barrier because it is like reasoning with a three-year old.
"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into."
OK, thank you ALL for your loving 2x4's. Don't let anyone ever say that "Puppy can dish it out, but he can't take it" -- hell, I STARTED the "When the Teacher Becomes the Student" thread, and have kept you all updated, because I WANT to learn more, and to have these outside perspectives correcting me when my own instincts are wrong. Let's face it, if my instincts were RIGHT, would I BE in this place???
So I just merged WDID's and Oldtimer's thoughts, added some of my own, and sent her the following e-mail:
(Wife),
Sorry, I really was exhausted last night. I'm able to better think about this this morning (the construction noise here not withstanding!).
First of all, I want you to know how much I love you. I have ALWAYS loved you (even sometimes when I didn't LIKE you very much), and I've come to realize that I always will. Reading some of the Mother's Day cards that I DIDN'T select for you (I had already bought yours earlier in the week), some of them described this love, and I have realized just how special ours has always been, and the eternal pull you will always have on this one boy's heart.
I think it does make sense to be simple and direct with the boys. The message you suggested makes sense: "We've been having problems and are trying to work through them. We love you and we are here for you, we are trying to do a better job of being here for each other."
I see what your counselor friend was saying. I'm sure she has dealt with many couples that try to bury all of their problems under some romantic distraction. I do think we are different. Telling the boys that we have problems and that we are going to work them out is a good way to put it. It's a good thing to teach them that marriages take effort to succeed. The renewing of our vows may mean something different to your friend if she is not a religious person, I don't know. But for me, anyway, our vows state specific things that we believe: I promise to be true to you in good times and in bad . . . love you and honor you all the days of my life . . . To me, that's not a romantic/wishy washy emotional thing so much as it is a commitment of my love to you PERIOD. As I told you the other night, it's like an adult baptism (vs. an infant Catholic one) where you KNOW what you're getting into -- the "for better or worse" part -- and yet you STILL say "Yeah, 'I do' want to walk this walk with you, as my wife."
How do I feel? I am terrified too. I panicked last night when I saw your email and became scared that you were giving up and distancing already. I am scared of the whole cycle repeating. I too long for this time to be different. I am scared of going through the pain of emotional separation again. I am scared to trust, to love, to be vulnerable again, and to fully open up my heart to you again.
But I am more scared of NOT trying with you. I am leery of you talking to clients, guys at the gym, taking a cellphone call. Paranoid that something or someone will pull you away again. I am happy though, that you are reaching out for support. I am excited about what IC and MC can offer us. And, I am more hopeful than I have ever been. I am joyful (and impressed) about the changes I see in you -- your introspection, your willingness to change, your insistence on finding a good life for you and to model the right messages and life for our daughters. I also feel that this time that I am less defensive and more willing/able to change than I have been in the past. I'm trying to be, anyway. I am hopeful that together we can find a marriage that offers a good life for both of us as a couple and as individuals.
I know what you mean about feeling relief and also about feeling fear! Yes, we have been through this "trying" before, and ended up where we were both unhappy. I believe this time is different. I won't stop loving you!!! I won't ever want to leave you. I want to be with you for the rest of my life. I won't give up on you, and knowing you won't give up on me, takes us to a new level. WE haven't ever gone to a GOOD counselor before to work on specific issues. This will help us. You've never done any individual counseling (ICing), and I think that can help you greatly. None of this will be easy, but I know that we will get through this. Actually, I look at other couples that have never gone through really difficult times, and I honestly feel a little sorry for them. It isn't until you can get through the hardest of times with your spouse, that you can truly look at them with unconditional, not taken for granted, pure love. I feel like we will move to a level that not all couples ever get to.
I believe that I have found out what love and commitment truly mean, (Wife). There is no relationship that will never come upon "hard times". Relationships that last are the ones that have couples that work at it all the time. That don't give up. If we wanted to be with someone that met our every need every second without much effort, we would be changing partners weekly. We change as human beings as we get older, but unless we want to change partners every year, we need to work with each other to grow together. Sometimes this will mean that we will disagree about things and have to talk it through. Sometimes this may mean that we have to see a counselor because the issue is too big for us to handle. Sometimes this may mean that we won't have that "new relationship feeling" you can get at the beginning (or even at the beginning of one of our reconciliations). I believe long lasting love is better than new, temporary love. I remember telling you that in the car that day in the Kohl's parking lot, two years ago. The "It" that keeps happening may just be what happens when you are in a long relationship. We just need to find what we can do to change the dynamic or at least understand it better (and earlier!), and to work our way thru it. We need to put forth the EFFORT always and forever. This won't be an easy thing and it won't be something we do and then it is done. I believe marriage is something that you need to constantly work at -- a beautiful garden, who needs weeding and tending to in order to bear fruit and beautiful flowers.
All I know is that I love you. With that love, and with God, EVERYTHING is possible.
So, bottom line? The idea of doing real work on our M is terrifying and exhilarating. (And, I have some great ideas on stress relieving practices that I will demonstrate on you and in you tonight.)
Oh, Puppy. I sooo know how your wife is feeling. Her letter to you was very well stated. She is looking to you to be a team in fighting for your marriage. She is sharing her fears and feelings of apprehension with you. This is not the time to call bullchit.
I need to provide some context here. The "calling her on her bullchit" thing was something SHE has brought up, more than once. She has said that the firm stance I took with her affair, and how I fought for her, was something that she needed. She has talked in general terms about "what women want/need" and has said "sometimes we need a man to call us on our bullshit." And she has SPECIFICALLY said that she has needed me to call her on HERS, immediately, instead of withdrawing and going some combination of pissy/pouty/angry/resentful.
It is with that backdrop that I struggle today with the "validate feelings-vs-2x4" question.
In re-reading my response to her from last nite, I really don't see where I "lectured" her. I DO think it was far, far too short, however, and she's looking for me to reveal much more of my true feelings here.
It's just hard, when this is the woman who has squashed your heart before, guys.
We know, Pup. I was going to say something about that. THe fact that it is because you called her on her stuff that things started changing. It's "being a man" if you will. It's how you took control of your intimacy that worked well for you as well. We were just saying this was not the time to call anything but understanding how she's feeling and strength in your feelings and letting her know how this time it will be different. In a way, you needed to show your manly strength once again, just in a different way.
And yes, she needed you to reveal more to her about your feelings. I'm thinking how she is around these divorced friends who are, more than likely, talking about how divorce was the hardest thing they ever did and how, thank goodness they did it, because they are so happy now. She needs to know that NOT divorcing is hard also and that it takes MORE strength and character and love to do THAT.
Pup, I would personally crawl over broken glass for someone who wrote me a note like this one. Well said--vulnerable, caring, open. Spirit-inspired, even.
M60 H52 D20 M14 yrs OW-old gf from 1986 bomb-5/18/08 H filed for D-9/10/08 D final 4/24/09 xH remarried (not OW) 2012
Pup, I would personally crawl over broken glass for someone who wrote me a note like this one. Well said--vulnerable, caring, open. Spirit-inspired, even.
I agree, HM!!
Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~ SMW
M40/H36 T16/M14 4K B2/08 S4/08 current
Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance. I Corinthians 13:7
Pup, I love the letter. I read it and I even felt better putting myself in your wife's shoes. She's scared and you're scared too. I bet she gave a sigh of relief when she read that. Good job!!
