By the way, I used to be afraid of what I'd do to. When I talk to you and try to help frame things for you... It is the new me talking. I SOOOOOOO understand you and all that you are feeling right now.
The most important thing right now is for you to build confidence in how you feel about yourself and in what you know about intimacy.
People are diferent but from what you wrote I would advise against pushing him right now. As he said, he's working his butt off and has been trying and there has been some success. If it was me and you kept pushing I would would react negetivly and think/feel no matter what I do you won't be happy so withdraw from you further and quit trying as much. I would suggest GAL right now - not ramming yourself down his throat.
Sorry, I guess I read it a little different. I read this... "I'm sure that you are surprised by his reaction, and he should know that his reaction is not what you expected. I would call him on his shield of anger and tell him that it is not a productive way to handle someone you love." as being pushy/forcefull. I am interpreting that at this time he feels pressured and frustrated. Mamalala wrote that he feels she is being demanding. To me that is a direct request to back off and give him some space at this time - not pursue more discussion.
I'll back Lucky up by stating that it is important for you to NOT back down from how you -really feel- in the relationship and expressing those honest feelings to him: whether he wants to listen or not. His current tantrum is all about getting you to back down and help him to continue the pretense that "all is well in the relationship". The truth is, all is NOT well, and like it or not, he will need to face up to that.
He won't do that if he can keep intimidating you into backing off.
It's also VERY important that you learn to have a serious relationship talk about these issues WITHOUT it turning into an argument or shouting-match. You will have to take the lead there: don't raise your voice (ever); don't criticize him; don't be defensive when HE attacks (criticizes) YOU; don't show contempt in any form (name calling, eye-rolling, etc.). Yes, I know -- all much easier said than done in the heat of battle, but it's important if you really want to be heard. Some more hints:
--> Stick to statements that tell him how YOU FEEL, and -not- what he is doing wrong. "It makes me feel very sad and lonely when we have so little physical intimacy in our relationship. I love you, and I need to feel your touch and your desire for me regularly in order for me to feel close to you and loved by you...." No attacks -- simply state how YOU are feeling.
--> Admit to being 50% of the problem. Make sure he understands that you accept at least half of the responsibility for the situation, that you have made serious mistakes too, and that you are willing to do all that you can to help fix it. Tell him that you want to meet his needs and make HIM feel loved and happy in the relationship.
--> Keep in mind what I call the Golden Rule of Marriage: the fact that men and women are so different, and feel loved in such dramatically different ways, that it is impossible to treat your spouse in the same way that you want to treated and expect them to be happy (the standard "Golden Rule") --> they WON'T BE. The Golden Rule of Marriage requires that each partner learns the unique needs of the other, and then works to meet the other's needs in a way that makes their -partner- feel loved and happy. Both of you will need to 'get' this rule.
--> If he stomps or storms away from a particular discussion, just let him go. Don't pursue. Let him have his time in the "man-cave" (ala John Gray) when he needs it. At the same time, don't apologize for feeling the way that you do -- don't let him put the blame on you. But as Lucky says, don't rise to his bait and let it put you into the same angry state that he's putting himself into: he would rather have an irrational fight than have to face the -real- issues in front of him.
You're in for a bit of rough time -- I've been there myself, and it's no fun. Like Lucky, I had to reach a point in my own marriage where I also decided that I could no longer live with the status quo, and was willing to bring the relationship to an end if my wife was unwilling to work with me to fix it. HOWEVER, before considering or delivering such utlimatums there is some work you need to do first. See my post on The Four Phases of SSM Recovery.
Welcome to the board -- there are some good and helpful folks here!
-- Bagheera
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
I worry that if she doesn't call him out on this anger tactic, that he'll just use it again. Really... What does he have to be angry about? That his W wants to ML with him?
In MY sitch, I had to reverse my typical pattern of retreating after each talk because my H COUNTED ON IT. He played each cycle the same way, and I let him off the hook over and over and over again. Lala, read my first post on "Peeling the Onion" for the full description of how that last talk went so you can get the full flavor.
Depends where you are in your stage of personal development, I suppose. When you're done pussy footing around, you're done.
Oh...My...Goodness...! Thank you all so much for your feedback! I appreciate it more than I can say!
I think Bagheera hit the nail on the head when he said that H is trying to continue the pretense that all is well in the relationship, when really it is not. Just a couple days ago we were talking about a friend's problems w/ her H, and he said, "Everyone's on the rocks but us." I just about fell on the floor. He really thinks everything is fine, just fine.
I think that I may need to back off a bit so he can handle some things at work. (This is tricky, cause things are tough at work right now, but things will be tough at work till he retires!) I seriously don't want to force myself on him. Would it be wise to ask him to tell me when we could begin to look at and work on these issues, and then hold him to it?
In the meantime, I went to the gym and took S to storytime (ahh, the life of a stay-at-home-mom!) and picked up D at Kindergarten. After I make them lunch and do some laundry, we will be off to the park for some bike riding, then home for homework and dinner and baths. He asks me all the time what I do all day, and says I am upset because I have nothing to do but sit on Facebook and make myself sad.
I am smiling as I type this. We have such similar lives. I am also a SAHM and my H has an insane job, 2-hour commute each way, and is barely home for our son's bedtime. When he is home, he is like death warmed over. We must have compassion for our brave, hard working men who make it possible for us to raise our babies... which sometimes makes it tough to ask for anything at all.
I would recommend that you *schedule* a day and time for the talk that would work for both of you. When I did that with H, he knew that it must be serious, so serious that I needed special uninterrupted time set aside for it.
I believe that Michele also recommends this in SSM.
They do work hard, and I am sooo grateful to be spending this time with my kids. It is tough to ask when he is so tired. I think the scheduling a time may be a good idea.
I was also thinking that I might write a letter to him, instead of trying to tell him. I really want to get across how much I love him and want him, not just sexually, but his heart too.
