Newly separated...spouse left, 3rd thread

[antlers]

In a business book by James C. Collins called Good to Great, Collins writes about a conversation he had with Stockdale regarding his coping strategy during his period in the Vietnamese POW camp.[3]

"I never lost faith in the end of the story, I never doubted not only that I would get out, but also that I would prevail in the end and turn the experience into the defining event of my life, which, in retrospect, I would not trade."[4]

When Collins asked who didn't make it out, Stockdale replied:

"Oh, that’s easy, the optimists. Oh, they were the ones who said, 'We're going to be out by Christmas.' And Christmas would come, and Christmas would go. Then they'd say, 'We're going to be out by Easter.' And Easter would come, and Easter would go. And then Thanksgiving, and then it would be Christmas again. And they died of a broken heart."[5]

Stockdale then added:

"This is a very important lesson. You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end—which you can never afford to lose—with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.”[6]

Witnessing this philosophy of duality, Collins went on to describe it as the Stockdale Paradox.

Stockdale spent 7 years as a POW. Enduring much worse physical, emotional, psychological stress than we can imagine. Faith is what keeps you going, he had no idea what was being done on his behalf - wife, military, government yet he stayed true to his values regardless. Faith that you come out the other side as a better man. Then confronting the reality allows you come up with a plan to cope. Doesn't mean you don't have fear but that you are handling it. Expectations over things you had no control over literally killed the "optimists."
I had no idea how my sitch would turn out but I knew what was at stake and that I would take action to persevere and thrive under a stressful situation. I did not get to that point right away, I had to go thru my emotions and deal with my issues first. I did it for myself, my W, and my family. How I handled myself mattered to me.
Cheers

Stockdale was obviously a strong character. Should we stay true to our values, regardless, concerning our marriage? I want to come out of this a better man...I think I already am better man, but I'm a work in progress. The reality is my wife left me. My plan right now is to DB the best I can, and follow the advice of others here who know more than I do, and maybe get a chance with my wife again. I don't have a plan for the other possible outcome. I guess if it becomes a reality I'll have to come up with one. I'd have to handle it, I'd have no choice, if I wanted to keep on living. I don't want to have unrealistic expectations.
I don't know how mine will turn out either, but it doesn't look good right now. I want to persevere and thrive regardless, although I haven't done much of that so far (thrive). I am getting by, and I didn't think I'd be able to do that a while back. I'm not proud of how I handled myself when this first was happening. I was the epitome of weakness. I'm dealing with some painful emotions too. I'd like to be stronger and detatched. She had a huge headstart on me there. I like the Stockdale Principle.

[Coach]

Strength and Honor.

You can handle it.

[antlers]

Strength and Honor.

You can handle it.

I think so too! You've just got to want to bad enough! I want for things to be better bad enough with the marriage to do what I'm doing. Don't like thinking about the other possible outcome though.

[CityGirl]

You keep saying "things dont look good". Well, of course they dont because you are basing everything on your W and what she will do as far as the marriage goes (which she has told you is over) and if she files for divorce or not.

So, why dont things look good for you? You are improving as a man in ways you said you needed to improve, you are learning new things about relationships, you are becoming a better father to your kids and you have a good job. What doesnt look good is you really arent doing anything different to build your life as a single person and right now, you *are* a single person. And no, I am not suggesting you go out and date but there are other ways to build your life as a single person (single parent) without getting involved in another romantic/sexual R.

It seems to me you are doing part of what you need to do and are holding off on the other parts (rebuilding your life as a single person) to see what your W does. The best mindset you can get to is to assume she will be filing for the D any day now. You need to find a balance of DB while detaching and rebuilding your life.

IMO that is why you think things dont look good. Make them look good and dont base what looks good (or not) on what your W does. You have a bad exchange on April 30th and now it is May 8th and you are still talking, obsessing and thinking about it. THat is why you cant detach. That moment is over. Learn from it but stop putting such emphasis on it. You are giving your W way too much power and she knows it. The person who cares about the R the least always has the most power in it. And right now it seems your W does not care so she holds all the cards. Are you a grown man, a father, a professional person going to let somebody who clearly does not care (right now) hold all YOUR cards? I hope not.

I know I come across as harsh and trust me, it has taken me well over a year to get to this place but the BS from a WAS is just that. Almost 14 months later my H is still in "early WAS mode" telling me the same old tired script that all WAS use. Frankly, I am tired of it. Its boring. Its lame. THat is how I know I have grown. Eventually you will get tired of it also. Seriously you just will. It almost sounds stupid after a while and you just sort of tune out the WAS.

That is not to say it doesnt hurt at times because it does. But after a while its about as stimulating as trying to reason with a two year old who is throwing a fit. My H, ONE YEAR LATER, is still trying to convince me his affair "just happened". Um, no. It was a choice he made. He says if I just accept that it just happened then he and I can just be friends and he can go along with his GF and still have me. I mean, WTF?

Dont let her treat you bad just because she can. Its nuts when you think about it.

[fb2]

No, guess I really haven't prepared for the worst yet. Don't even want to think about it. I know the reality, and graveness, of the situation...I guess I'm just not ready to be there. Sorry!

One day while you are still beating yourself up a thug is most likely going to serve you the "papers". Prepare for the worst. Talk to a lawyer and find out how you can protect yourself in 2 areas - child custody and money/property. If you don't do this you haven't got Stockdale on your side.

[antlers]

You keep saying "things dont look good". Well, of course they dont because you are basing everything on your W and what she will do as far as the marriage goes (which she has told you is over) and if she files for divorce or not.

So, why dont things look good for you? You are improving as a man in ways you said you needed to improve, you are learning new things about relationships, you are becoming a better father to your kids and you have a good job. What doesnt look good is you really arent doing anything different to build your life as a single person and right now, you *are* a single person. And no, I am not suggesting you go out and date but there are other ways to build your life as a single person (single parent) without getting involved in another romantic/sexual R.

It seems to me you are doing part of what you need to do and are holding off on the other parts (rebuilding your life as a single person) to see what your W does. The best mindset you can get to is to assume she will be filing for the D any day now. You need to find a balance of DB while detaching and rebuilding your life.

IMO that is why you think things dont look good. Make them look good and dont base what looks good (or not) on what your W does. You have a bad exchange on April 30th and now it is May 8th and you are still talking, obsessing and thinking about it. THat is why you cant detach. That moment is over. Learn from it but stop putting such emphasis on it. You are giving your W way too much power and she knows it. The person who cares about the R the least always has the most power in it. And right now it seems your W does not care so she holds all the cards. Are you a grown man, a father, a professional person going to let somebody who clearly does not care (right now) hold all YOUR cards? I hope not.

I know I come across as harsh and trust me, it has taken me well over a year to get to this place but the BS from a WAS is just that. Almost 14 months later my H is still in "early WAS mode" telling me the same old tired script that all WAS use. Frankly, I am tired of it. Its boring. Its lame. THat is how I know I have grown. Eventually you will get tired of it also. Seriously you just will. It almost sounds stupid after a while and you just sort of tune out the WAS.

That is not to say it doesnt hurt at times because it does. But after a while its about as stimulating as trying to reason with a two year old who is throwing a fit. My H, ONE YEAR LATER, is still trying to convince me his affair "just happened". Um, no. It was a choice he made. He says if I just accept that it just happened then he and I can just be friends and he can go along with his GF and still have me. I mean, WTF?

Dont let her treat you bad just because she can. Its nuts when you think about it.

Hi CityGirl.

When I say that, I am referring specifically to the marriage.

I am improving as a man in ways that I needed to, and I am learning new things about relationships, and I am a better father to my kids, and I do have a good job. Those things are all good. No, I guess I'm not building my life as a single person yet...I'm kind of still in survival mode!

I don't know what's gonna happen with this thing CityGirl. I'm doing what I can right now...which is a lot more than I thought I could do a while back. I'd like to get to that mindset, but I'd like to do it without it actually happening. That sounds good to me...finding a balance between DB'n while detatching and rebuilding my life. I want to do that.

When I say 'things don't look good', I mean the relationship. I'm really trying in other areas for things to be better. Yeah...it hit me hard. But I really want to stop thinking about it, and I really want to stop thinking/obsessing about her. I think I'm detatching some, but I want to be detatched a lot more. Yeah, she knows she has the power! I just don't know how, or want to bad enough, maybe, to not let her hold all the cards. I guess I'm scared.

You don't come across that way to me. I've read your stuff, and I see that you've been through quite a bit already. I'd like to get to where I'm not bothered by the hateful things she says anymore.

I know you hurt too...we all do. I'm sorry that you have to deal with the situation you're in...I hope it gets better for you. why would a person think they can have a situation like that?!?!

Yeah, it is nuts. But I treated her pretty bad in the past, and I don't want a divorce...I am trying to be different than I was in the past.

[antlers]

No, guess I really haven't prepared for the worst yet. Don't even want to think about it. I know the reality, and graveness, of the situation...I guess I'm just not ready to be there. Sorry!

One day while you are still beating yourself up a thug is most likely going to serve you the "papers". Prepare for the worst. Talk to a lawyer and find out how you can protect yourself in 2 areas - child custody and money/property. If you don't do this you haven't got Stockdale on your side.

I don't want it to happen, although I know it might. I'll have to deal with it when and if it does. I know where I stand on those issues, as of now. Stockdale is present and accounted for, maybe not close to full force though. Those issues can change too, especially in the thick of things. Your advice and input is appreciated.

[CityGirl]

No, I guess I'm not building my life as a single person yet...I'm kind of still in survival mode!

Where has being in survival mode gotten you? You are not detached and still obsessing about your W. Is that bringing you closer of further away to building a life for you?

I don't know what's gonna happen with this thing CityGirl. I'm doing what I can right now...which is a lot more than I thought I could do a while back. I'd like to get to that mindset, but I'd like to do it without it actually happening. That sounds good to me...finding a balance between DB'n while detatching and rebuilding my life. I want to do that.

The biggest part of DB *is* rebuilding your life. The whole concept is to make your life the best it can be so either way, marriage or no marriage, you will be okay.

When I say 'things don't look good', I mean the relationship. I'm really trying in other areas for things to be better. Yeah...it hit me hard. But I really want to stop thinking about it, and I really want to stop thinking/obsessing about her. I think I'm detatching some, but I want to be detatched a lot more. Yeah, she knows she has the power! I just don't know how, or want to bad enough, maybe, to not let her hold all the cards. I guess I'm scared.

The thing is, you havent even begun to accept the two of you dont have a relationship right now other than co parents. She has already left you, moved out and moved on and wont even talk to you... what could look worse? What are you scared of? She has already left you and told you the marriage is over so its not like that can happen again. You both live in separate places. D papers wouldnt change much now would it? Just because she hasnt filed yet it doesnt mean anything is different if she were to file. Right?

You don't come across that way to me. I've read your stuff, and I see that you've been through quite a bit already. I'd like to get to where I'm not bothered by the hateful things she says anymore.

That is what detachement is though... no matter what the WAS says it just doesnt bother you anymore. They can feel or act as they like but it doesnt control how you REACT or feel about it.

To this day my H still whines that I would not let him come over anymore. For months, like some sort of moron I would tell him time and time again as long as you are with OW you wont come here and hang out with me. Very simple. Eventually I just got tired of saying the same thing yet he is still whining that he was not allowed to come over for one year. So I just shrug now and say "okay". It used to bug me so much how dense he could be but now... well, what can I do about it. If you as my husband are sleeping with somebody else, using OUR money and car to take another woman on dates and playing sleepover with her on a daily basis then you dont come here. Its not rocket science. So he can whine all he wants about it now. I just shrug. Its an old and boring conversation and I wont waste anymore time having it. Eventually you will get tired of the same old boring conversations with your W about how sick you make her. One day you will just say "okay" and shrug your shoulders and go about your business.


Yeah, it is nuts. But I treated her pretty bad in the past, and I don't want a divorce...I am trying to be different than I was in the past.

Well, nobody wants to get divorced I dont think. But you "being different" has to be for you and not for the sake of the marriage because as it stands now you will be getting divorced. The changes have to be for you!

[sandi2]

No-no, Song, I have not given up on you! I will eventually get back over there. Just can't get as much ground covered these days......lol.


Sandi

[sandi2]

Dear Antlers,

“I continue to ask Him to help heal our marriage, and to help her heal. Some think it's selfish, some don't. I don't know.”

I will never believe it is selfish to ask for healing for her or the M when the Bible teaches us to pray for one another. Also, based on His Word, we know that it is His will that people stay M, but everyone does not do God’s will. If they did, then all would believe in Christ and be saved……but some choose not to, so His will is not done. It is that personal choice He gave mankind.

“Do you really think Satan is involved”

I’m sure you are referring to the statement I made about the “enemy”. I started to use the word or name Satan, but you never know exactly how the other person might react to some things, so I tried to be careful. But to answer your question and to expound on what I meant by the enemy…….let me try to state it like this. First, we know that it is God’s will for people’s M’s to work out. However, I might add that all M’s are not good and some people in abusive R’s have to D, but we will not include that scenario at this time. Secondly, whatever God is “for”……His enemy (Satan) is against. The way Satan can be in something (as you put it) is when a person is not living in obedience to God. So, don’t you feel that your wife is not living in obedience to God? Therefore, she can be “influenced” by the temptations, etc. of the enemy. We all can. But, as Believers, we don’t “have” to be influenced by evil and we have the promises of the Bible to carry us through any crises we face. It is great that you can pray “for” her and if she is a Believer, you can even ask that the Holy spirit convicts her heart or that somebody will say something or she will see something………that “something” may cause her to open her eyes and her heart to the will of God. However, be careful what you pray for. I would tell you never to pray, “Whatever it takes, please bring my wife back home to me.” That could be a very dangerous prayer b/c we don’t know to what extent it would take to bring her back home to you--and would you really be ready to accept “anything” in order for her to come back? In other words, the price may be too high. Do you know what I mean? BTW, I can't remember who said it, but I agree with using God like a genie or Santa Clause. He is not a "wish book". (Not that you were doing that, but just throwing that in...free of charge.) We could really get into some deep doctrine here, but I will not continue right now. However, I will always try to answer what you ask……as best as I can.

“I'm also praying to know His will for me, and for strength and guidance to do his will.”

Do you want to know how we are to know God’s will for our lives? Read His Word. We learn what His will for our lives are in His written word. I believe when we do our best to follow what is in His word, then He will also reveal to us His will regarding more intimate matters in our life.

“I want God to help me. I've been asking for His help regarding this matter for 5 months, and a lot of the time, I've felt that nobody was on the other end! That shook me even more! I feel like I have been willing...and I want God to do great things in and through me. It just hasn't happened yet. I'm ready for it to happen. Is it because I'm not willing enough yet, or what?”

I know that feeling very well. As a young Christian, I had a lot of emotions and strong “feelings” in the worship services and I could “feel” the leading of the Holy Spirit in matters. But, as I grew older and grew in spirituality……I discovered that those “feelings” I had years ago did not come so often. Like you, I wondered why? I learned that is what “faith” is all about. Did you realize that while we live here on earth is the only time we will have the opportunity to use our faith? We won’t need it in heaven! So, my next question is……what causes opportunities to make us use our faith? The answer is problems…….trouble……crises, etc. If we never had a problem……would there be a need for faith as a Christian? Don’t think so. You are being given a lot of opportunities to use your faith. The enemy will use discouragement as his number one tool against the Believer. If he can make you think that God is not listening to you or doing anything to help you, then you might as will give up. But, God is listening. Maybe He just wants you to see what He has already given you. How do you find that out? Look in His word. For example, look up Roman 8:28, Philippians 4:11, 13……just as a couple of scriptures to look at for encouragement. Those are His promises to you, Antlers, and you have to believe (faith) and act as if He has already worked everything together for your good. B/c He has! If you act as if you believe, then you will stop fretting and making yourself sick.

“I want her to be protected and well. I know that I hurt her, a lot, over the years. It's doubtful that she'll ever forgive me “

It was not you, sweetie, that I was talking about praying for her protection. I always pray for protection over my family………but especially any that are not living in the will of God.
As for the forgiveness from her.....love conquers all. Give it a lot of time. Give God time. His time is not our time and His ways are not our ways. That is why we get very frustrated with Him (lol). He doesn’t do things like we want done or in the time we want it done.

“I've really wanted to feel much more from God during this time than I have. My faith was really shaken, early on, when all of this began.”

Like I said, it is “easy” when we get to “feel” things from God. The test is when there are no feelings and we have to use our faith. Your faith was shaken and now it is being tested. Don’t fail the test………use your faith.

In response to my getting some emotion off my own chest over the “vows” statements, you ended by saying:

“And I regret it daily. The regret and remorse, especially now that I know better, are very heavy weights for me to carry around. I don't really know how to drop these weights either! “

There is another scripture or two that I think you should know. One is about casting our cares upon Him, for He cares for us. I think there is another one about leaving our burdens at the feet of Jesus. Well, I could talk for hours about leaving burdens at His feet and then picking them back up and continuing to carry them around with us. However, I won’t do that to you!

After I repented of my EA and was back in God’s forgiveness, I was having a terrible time forgiving myself. I still do at times. But, He does not want us to continue to live in a constant state of guilt and self blame b/c we cannot grow and He can’t use us productively. He wants our best. He wants us to be happy! How can we be if we beat ourselves up every waking minute?

I probably over reacted to what you said about the wedding vows. I have just heard it so many times from LBH’s use that as the wimpy excuse of not taking any responsibility. It is a pet peeve with me……as you clearly saw. You are correct when you say that both of you are guilty of breaking the wedding vows. I think in “most” cases (not all) both people are guilty of breaking part of those vows taken, but the problem is when one of those people don’t see where they did anything wrong. I appreciate you bringing out the part about not cherishing her b/c that is just as much a part of the vows as the fidelity.

“As hard as it is, and as sad as it is...I have to go on. I don't want it to be that way. But I have to learn to live with this, and be stronger and more knowledgeable. I want so much to be happy and strong. I want to love and enjoy our kids, and I want them to love and enjoy me. I'm so sorry this happened. I was just wrong about so many things. But I am different now. Like I said...I'm not there yet, but I want to be.”

I agree with all that you said in your post about the WAW. It also made me feel so sad for you when I read the end of your post and this last part. But, Antlers, you will get there! You are looking at things through clearer eyes and you understand better now. Yes, we all wished we knew “then” what we know now. But your life is far from being over. Whatever God has in store for you, it will be good. It may not be what you were expecting, but it will be good……as long as you are living for Him.

I don’t usually tell this story, but I will since I blew my top last time.

My mother married a man when she was just a young teenager and before she graduated school. He was awful and the M was horrible. I won’t go into details, but she finally D him and went back home and finished her education. Later, she M another man. A couple of years later, I was born. Our family was not wealthy in money, but we had so much love and most of all we had God’s blessings. So, I get riled up when some people talk about marriage, divorce, and remarriages. I know everyone has a right to their own beliefs and opinions. I am not here to argue any of that. I only know that people can make mistakes, just like a young teenage girl that let some other young people talk her into marrying a man that was not who she should be with. Yes, God wants us to stay married, but when we mess up and marry a bad person or that person divorces us, then it is my personal belief that God will give us another chance at happiness. I realize that a lot of people believe that divorce is a sin. I do not believe it is an unforgiveable sin! I do believe with all my heart………no, I KNOW WITH ALL MY HEART that my family was blessed. I could tell you much, much more about that, but there is really no need to try to “prove” my point.
I suppose I wanted to tell you that b/c you sound so sad and as if you feel life is over for you. I know you still love your wife. I understand that you want her to be a part of your life. Hopefully and prayerfully that will happen. But what I’m trying to say is that there is always a future, Antlers. God is a God of hope. He is also Love. I know my mother’s stitch with her first H was quite different, but I just wanted you to know that if there had never been a future for her with any other man.....I would never have been born! Then look what you would have missed! (LOL!)

Thank you for your kind words of love.

Take care of yourself,
Sandi