Leap of Faith

[BobbiJo]

Ali--
Don't know if it makes a bit of difference but I am Virgo (Aug 24) and he is Sagittarius (20 Dec).

Per the iceberg you mentioned, I would guess there is probably a lot he has done in the past 17 years that he knows about and I don't, so an iceberg is a good analogy. I even said, "You and I have not had sex for 8 months, men your age don't go that long without something (this is what my pastor said to me but I didn't mention the pastor at all last night). And you don't live here so any night of the week you could be going to strip clubs, calling phone lines, or even meeting women. I would have no idea. I am sure if that has happened it is part of the pain and burden that you are carrying and you don't have to hide it anymore." He nodded like he understood me...

Again, his brain can simmer over the convo. (or not). I am home with a sick kid so I haven't really given it much thought. Which is weird since usually I go over every talk we have in my head and break it down and analyze it. This time I don't really have that desire...

[AliSuddenly]

Hey Bobbi,
Yes, I feel you can be assured that you said the right thing in the right time, you were in the moment, so to speak.

If you give me his birth time and where he was born, I will take a look, I'm pretty curious! I'm betting he has some Pluto-Venus contacts, or Pluto Saturn or Pluto-Sun, considering the way he acts out. Pluto rules all things taboo and sexual and is the ruler of Scorpio. Scorpio is a secretive sign and it makes us secretive in the area it falls in our chart (and more so if you are a Scorpion, or Scorpio rising). But he is a Sagi, so ever the optimist, or should be !!

The iceberg thing, I meant more psychologically/metaphorically than actual things he has done that you dont know about, but I guess thats all part of it.

Can I ask you.. you have known him since you were 16, but you two havent ever really discussed (or not properly) his desires in this area, the things he feels compelled to do?

[Kalni]

I hated this when it happened with my H. I would spill my guts out to him and he would just stare at me, going "yes, I udnerstand" (validating maybe? Ugh, dear God!!!) and then...nothing. No response, no change, no discussion... He still does it.

I am sorry about Nathan. I still get tonsilitis (sp)2-3 times a year and it sucks!!!
K

[mishka422]

((((((BBJ)))))))))

Just caught up.

You did a loving, compassionate thing by talking to Dan and opening up what is probably a dark subject for him. No one likes to have their dirty laundry put in front of them, but it's necessary sometimes to affect possible change.

Now, IMO, all you can do is follow through on your own plans and let Dan stew. I'm sure that there is no way he could sweep what you said away and ignore it. Don't you think that if he was going to deny all of it and pretend that none of that has an effect on him that he would have jumped to that immediately. The fact that he seemed reflective and in agreement with you speaks volumes.

I'll pray for you BBJ. You and your kids and Dan.

[BobbiJo]

Thanks.

He took me by surprise a little yesterday. When he left Wednesday night after our "chat" (ok I did 99% of the talking), he said he would see me Friday at Nathan's karate graduation. Fine, no problem.

So I was home with Nathan sick yesterday, all day. Went and got our D from day care, ate dinner, etc etc. Was out mowing the back yard around 7:30 while Nathan was watching tv and Sydney came out with me. Looked up from mowing and saw Dan going into the garage's back entry door.

I finished mowing (20 minutes or so) then came up to the house. He had come to work more on the playset. I asked if he needed help, he said sure. So I helped him work on the playset for 20 minutes, then went in and bathed the kids and put them to bed. Came back out to finish helping him.

We did some small talk, nothing of any importance. I just hope you are right Mish and he is "marinating"....

Only two weeks till we are out of school. That is when I told him I would file. I hope he acknowledges our conversation between now and then. Otherwise I am 100% that I will follow through. I am going by my pastor's advice. Give him one last chance to choose our marriage and be crystal clear about it. Then, move forward without hesitation.

[mishka422]

I am going by my pastor's advice. Give him one last chance to choose our marriage and be crystal clear about it. Then, move forward without hesitation.

As long as you are absolutely positive that is what you want right now. I know you have been fighting this for a long time now and you are tired of being the only one that seems to be doing that. What would Dan have to do to make it clear that he is chosing you and the M? Want to move back in? Or just saying it and starting to work on resolutions? What action would you like to see?

[BobbiJo]

Pretty much, Pastor said he is cake-eating, for the most part. He gets to have family time, he gets to present the father/husband front to the community by doing things like going to church with me, taking the kids out to eat together, coming to Sydney's birthday party, etc etc.

But he also gets almost total freedom. When he isn't here, who knows what he is doing and who he is with?

However Pastor said he is also lost. He said he could tell that looking at Dan in church. They way he reacted nonverbally during various sermons, they way he won't meet the pastor's eyes when we shake hands as we leave, things like that. He said he knew something was 'off' with Dan before I ever came in to talk...

So, he said, Dan has already ended the marriage. He ended it
*when he gave himself to another woman (women)
*when he moved out of the marital home (family home, whatever you want to call it)
*when he stopped being intimate with me

He said those are very big indicators, esp. the lack of intimacy. Because men his age don't just decide to be celibate, something usually fills the void.

His advice was, "Give him one more chance to state, clearly, whether he wants to be in the marriage or not". In other words, if he says he wishes he could, but he doesn't know if we can, if he says he can't take the risk right now, etc etc, then he isn't choosing the marriage. Even if he says he knows he will miss me, etc etc....if he cannot say Yes, I want our marriage, then, he doesn't want our marriage. {That is not to say that later he won't realize he f'ed up. It just means that he isn't there at this point. But I would still file.}

What would it take for me to believe he chooses me? For him to say, "I choose you." I believe he should move back home if he wants us to be together. Because if he is truly addicted to sex/porn, being off on his own lends itself to him continuing to act on those impulses. Not that he couldn't do it if he lived here, but if he really wanted to stop, it would give him more support. So I would want him to move in.

Bare minimum to keep me from filing?
*Say he does want to spend the rest of his life with me. I don't have time for 'let's try and see'...

*Admit that he has a problem with porn/sex/fidelity/whatever. There is obv. something wrong inside of him for this to happen

*Agree to counseling with a Christian counselor, individual for sure, couples at some point, and i would like it to be our pastor at least in part.

*Transparency in phone and internet records, emails, credit card statements, etc etc

*Agreement/desire that down the road a ways, when we have tackled these issues, we will re-commit our marriage/renew vows. That is essential to me, but I would want some counseling/problem solving before then or they would just be token vows.

So, I want it all. And I doubt I will get it all. But it is what I want.

[AliSuddenly]

What if you told him you love and accept him and want to stay M to him, REGARDLESS of his predliction for S&M (because thats what it is), but that you need to find ways to negotiate some boudaries over it....eg

- you accept this is a part of his sexual nature and isnt likely to change
- he speaks to a pyschosexual counsellor to see if he can unravel the causes
- he limits his spending on viewing this type of stuff
- he DOESNT take it outside of the M anymore

I dont think couples counselling is the issue, the issue is in Dan. I feel you may be underestimating that, thats why I suggested you call a pyschotherapist for yourself, to gather information about it, be better informed. Thats what my sister did (but eventually, had to lovingly walkaway). I wonder if this isnt about acceptance and not about hoping he will "stop" as you say above.

[mishka422]

You're not wrong to want it all. There is no point in settling for second best.

Yes, you love Dan, without a doubt, but you have to take care of yourself first - emotionally, spiritually, and physically. He has been a huge sinkhole in your life and will continue to be unless he man's up and does the right thing. I will pray he does, but that darned free will thing is pretty hard for people to overcome.

STRENGTH to you BBJ!

[sandycay]

I like your boundaries Bobbi J.

They are fair.