I'm supposed to be working but got bored so thought I'd check the boards instead
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My H is like your H, a bit passive-agressive when they get angry. So my H lies by omission too, sometimes he outright lies as well, but mostly by omission. He thinks that omission isn't really lying and that white lies are lying either.
Why in the heck do they do this? The WAH becomes so sneaky! Maybe it is their warped way of trying not to hurt us and also because they aren't brave enough to come out and say it.
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I like what you DB coach said about H and OW. I know he feels he doesn't deserve his kids - not sure about deserving me. But I know he knows me quite well and he knows that I am a pretty upright person so maybe he just thinks we are not a good fit
You and the kids are a package. I would really struggle to believe it is just his kids he feels he doesn't deserve. From what I have read about WAH it is all tied in with their guilt and the reasons that they can't come back. It isn't that they are rejecting you; it is that they feel they don't deserve you. I used to think that because this was the case I should not dress up too much and look too good etc so I was 'more at his level'. Uh uh, doesn't work (isn't DBing soooo counter-intuitive??!). My H started noticing me when I looked better. I think this is because it reduces their guilt because they associate looking better with feeling better imo. Then you become a challenge, a prize for winning, not a 'I've ruined your life and I can see it every time I look at you' reminder.
And you know, although you might think he is having his cake and eating it a WAH (my ex BIL) said to me once when I asked this question to him 'I can most definitely tell you he hasn't got his cake and eating it, because he hasn't got you'.
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I am going to dress to kill at the Counselling session tomorrow. I did my own nails tonight, going to put on a pretty dress, do my own hair and look FABULOUS! He won't know what hit him. I am going to look like a 'woman only a fool would leave'. He he
As Kev said, subtly sexy. The great thing about men in a fog is that they know you look good, or something is different but they often can't identify what which spikes their interest and gets them thinking.
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Would I be a fool to take him back? Once a cheat, always a cheat, they say. I think it is partly true. If they don't fix what the problem is or find what they are seeking, then they will repeat the cycle.
He was the fool to leave, and he is an even bigger fool to not come back! Though obviously he doesn't need to hear that There is nothing foolish about you. You are making choices about your life, I would say that is empowering not foolish.
What you said about once a cheat always a cheat, imo everyone on this planet has the potential to cheat and even more so if their love bank is missing a deposit. I think the tools you have learnt along this journey will keep you more aware of monitoring your relationship should he come back. I realise now what hard work marriage is and I think a lot of us are here because we started to take our relationship for granted. I know I won't be making that mistake again.
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But JCJ, you are right regarding the illness affecting his personality. I have been thinking about it for the last two days. Why is it that some people who go through a serious illness come out feeling a need to bond with their family, to not waste anymore of their life, to find real meaning to their life. Then there is my H, who was totally depressed even though he survived a near-death experience, who detached himself from wife and family, who was sleepwalking through life and who refuse to take care of himself? He did the opposite of embracing life. Why is that
When my H was going through his illness, and he went through a lot, he was the bravest person I have ever known. I will always admire him for the way he dealt with everything. I think it is after the illness when things start happening in the brain because while you were ill you thought about the illness, afterwards you start to question your own mortality which is a whole different board game and mightily scary. I don't know what goes on in their head but there is a lot to process. Sometimes it gets too much and they think that if they can ignore it then it will go away. So they start a new r with ow who doesn't know half of what they have been through. You can't bury something forever imo and whatever they do to suppress those feelings won't work. It is also my opinion that WAH do process these feelings, it just takes them way longer. Everyone goes at their own speed.
There can be no resentment from past transgressions. That'll just lead to its own set of complicated issues and have you right back here again. When your H does come back, you'll never rid him of his guilt for what he's done but you can help him to live with it by being comlpetely non-judgemental about it.
Wow Kev, that is a gem! I'm totally keeping note of that, what a great way of expressing it.
Thanks Davidswife, Mark and JCJ. I felt your vibes and prayers. Today went well.
I arrived at the office on time. My H was already sitting in the waiting area. He looks up: H: Hi, you look good. (He hasn't commented on my looks since breakup.) Me: (Big smile)Thanks. How's it going with you?
H then proceeds to tell me about his work, same as when we're still together. He is complaining about his clients, his long hours etc.(Exactly the same as when we were together and when I adviced him in the past to take it easy, your work is getting you down etc.) But this time I just nodded, kept my mouth shut and listened. No advice. I am thinking to myself, see, you are miserable because of the way you handle your work, not because I am nagging you. You are still miserable. Your assumption that when I am gone, you problems would be gone also are incorrect. But outwardly, I am just a female nodding, making eye-contact, listening intently to his comments.
We proceed in the office and the C based this session around the children. That's it. No R talk, great. Not good for my DB'ing anyway. No finances, neither of us are irresponsible.
C asked if H still plans to remain separated and then the expectation down the road was D. H replied yes. C asked me the same question, I replied no. That is not what I plan (meaning I am still open to reconcile after separation, not just D.) So C said well, it is still good to have an agreement in place if we decide to be remain separated and then he explained the options of amicably D or go the lawyers route.
H was visibly tense during the whole hour.
The C went through all the big kids-related issues like college, what our opinions are. Like how to coordinate rules, what we think about dating and lastly 'third parties'.
We agree most on everything and some things we had to think through like what age is appropriate for dating etc. But on third parties, the convo got interesting. He asked H first what he thought.
H:I came from a broken home and third parties did nothing for me at all. I don't see a need to introduce third parties to the children at all, anytime in the future. Ever.
(So here I am thinking, I wonder what OW thinks about this. That H will just close off a part of his life to her. I wonder if this is OK with her. As a woman, I know that I would want to be part of my man's life and if he closes one part of it out, I would be hurt that he doesn't trust me and doesn't even consult me on this issue before making a 'final decision'. It's not a give-and-take relationship. More like a dictatorship. Hehe, I see problems cropping up already.)
So then the C asked me what I thought. I think the C was expecting me to give my opinion of 'no way no how is H going to introduce OW to our kids.' Instead, I did which neither of them expected.
Me: Well, hypothetically speaking, if we were to get a D, I would want to move home and be remarried. I like to be married. If I meet someone new, I would want that someone to share my life with me. The kids are a huge part of my life. So how can I say to the kids, "Mom is going out now and I won't tell you where I am going or who I am with?" It's not realistic. Especially since we would be moved and not living in the same city as H, I will have the kids with me almost 100% of the time!
Then I proceeded to say:
Me: But for the short term I agree with H. No need to tell about third parties just now since the kids don't even know we are separated. It would be a big shock for them.
I felt the tension in my H. I, on the other hand, was totally relaxed because that was just how I thought of the sitch, there was no emotion attached and I didn't want my H to do anything. I was expecting nothing from him. So eventhough he is the one having the A, he is the one suffering and I am the one who is relaxed and happy and thinking of my happy future!!
I did so well. So in essence I was hinting to H: I am happy, I don't need you. I can plan a happy future without you with the children. If you choose to leave us and D me then you have to do what you have to do but don't expect my life to s*ck or that our kids will not have another male figure in their life. I will continue to have a family and plan to build a new one because that is just who I am.
I think he got the message loud and clear. I think the C deliberately gave me this platform to do this. The C also set up the platform for H to think about kids-related issues which he hasn't even considered, like talking about dating and s*x education and such. I think H always assumed that I would handle it. But C is in essence saying, you are not together anymore, you need to carry your weight as a father, H, and consider these things and come to an early agreement. Otherwise you will have a lot of arguments with PM in the future because these things were not planned out and coordinated.
We will think about these issues and get back to C in two weeks. After the session as we were walking out,
H said sheepishly, 'We can talk this weekend if you'd like to talk.' Me: Sure, how about one night after the kids go to sleep? H: OK, Sunday night. Me: OK.
Then I gave him a sideways smile, with a flirty look and the wind had whipped up my hair and I said:
Me: Thanks for the meeting today. H: (looking totally surprised) Oh, OK.
I walked away.
I had deliberately said after the kids sleep because he always rushes to OW (I assume) after he leaves our house. So it would be great if he has to tell her that he will be late seeing her. Hehe.
I will see what is on his mind. He probably want to discuss more kids-issues. Probably not R.
I feel that he is still conflicted eventhough he confirmed to C that he wants to remain separated and eventually proceed to D. I don't feel that he is 100% comfortable with this decision yet, otherwise, he would be relaxed and happy and able to look me in the eye and wouldn't appear so tense all the time. My parents think that he doesn't even smile anymore, that his smiles are so forced, it's painful to watch. This man is not a happy WAS. I hope he realizes this soon before it is too late.
Well, babysteps. At least he is opening up in one aspect of our R - talking about kids. So I am going to give myself a big pat on the back. One step forward toward my goal.
Me:39 H:40 S:9 D:7 First Bomb ONS:June 07 Second Bomb OW: March 08 Separated: March 08 M:15 yrs T:18 yrs H deep into A with OW Achieved ACCEPTANCE May 30, 09
I think it all sounds wonderful!!! Yeah, if he was happy, it does seem like he would look it or not look miserable. I love that he noticed how hot you looked, and it was great that he knows you don't plan to sit on a shelf in case he might be interested in you again someday. And yeah, that person when you get remarried would be a huge figure in your kids' life, b/c I know some guy is not going to let you get away! I think WAS have all this stuff planned out and then it doesn't wind up like they wanted, which is good.
Congratulations on the meeting. It sounds as though you did brilliantly. Well done! From your post it didn't even sound as though you were too conflicted during the session and that you'd definitely gone past the acting 'as if' stage. That shows real strength of character and conviction. Kudos to you!
I'm trying to put myself in your H's place right now and must admit I'm finding it difficult. The fact he noticed and commented on how good you looked just goes to show that he's beginning to lose some of the WAS traits. When he says things like that you can bet that he means them. I'm going to go out on a limb here and make a bit of an assumption. As a guy, the way you describe your H's actions sounds very much like he now feels trapped with OW. I don't know what kind of R they have but I've got a feeling she is controlling his actions to a certain extent. In doing this she is obviously your main hurdle. I'm sure you know this already though. Your H will be feeling a fear of going back. Stubborness makes us stand by our decisions even when we know they're wrong. I would have cautioned you against DBing too well and making him believe that you were now lost to him but you've already covered that eventuality by telling the C at the session that you are still willing to reconcile. You also managed to let him know that you're not willing to wait forever though by mentioning the possibility of moving back home and getting remarried. That must have knocked him back a bit?
Anyway, I fully believe now that your H won't need too much encouragement to come back to you if only he could find a way to get shot of OW. You really are an inspiration to us all PM. Thank you and good luck!
Keep smiling - you've earned it!
Kev X
Me: 32, Wife: 22 Son: 2 Married: 2 years Separated: January 5th 2009
Sometimes you have to become lost before you can find yourself.
What a great session you had. It definately looked like YOU had him in the palm of your hand, brilliant, I am so pleased for you. I like the way you epitomised DR to the max - looking good, PMA, detachment, GAL. You clearly have got your life on track and looking to the future with or without your H, though that would be the ultimate. I applaud you and I feel proud to know you are moving forward for you and your family.
I also agree with Karen43. We all know most WAW's have planned a new life before the bomb has dropped, thinking the grass is always greener with OP or alone, in some cases this may be the case, but in general this is not usually the case from what I hear and read. In your case you are prepared for whatever comes your way and you must be very very proud of yourself as you should be.
Congratululations PM
Mark x
Last edited by markhaving probs; 05/08/0908:25 AM.
Bomb dropped: 19/12/08 Me:48 WAW:41 D:10 S:6 Married: 15 years
That sounds so great! Well done, you totally rocked!
That is great that he commented that you looked good I also think that you got him thinking about the very real possibility that he may have to lose you and share his kids. You were so brave!
You know, even if you don't a have a r talk right away I have found you can bond over other talk and sometimes that leads to a r talk when the time is right. So long as you work out a way to communicate about things again it can open up opportunities later on.
When WAS's leave they have so much power, we walk on eggshells and I think they get used to that, in fact I think it enables them. That balance is shifting and you are showing yourself to be a strong, powerful woman - and that is so attractive!
There is nothing foolish about you. You are making choices about your life, I would say that is empowering not foolish.