I guess that is not really the question. It is really more a matter of me changing approaches and being a bit more "pursuing" if I do that.
It does fit with everything else right now. I would say that recently I have been "gently pursuing". I initiate hugs and she hugs back and I initiate snuggling in bed or on the couch while watching TV and she snuggles back - but neither is too often. This morning I initiated a good-bye kiss and she kissed me back. Today I gave her a rose and she was happy. I haven't gone farther, don't pressure, and she does not initiate anything. So I am pursuing right now, but lightly. Saying ILY would up the ante a bit.
For years, my W was the pursuer. She was the snuggler, the kisser, the one who made sure we always said ILY when we hung up the phone with each other. Then she stopped. Now she is emotionally incapable of initiating affection. Several months ago I asked her to start and she said she "just can't"
It's my turn. As someone else pointed out, it's time for me to take some risks and get rejected some.
I'm more than willing - but really don't want to scare her back into full WAW mode.
Last edited by Thinker; 05/06/0908:51 PM.
Me 42, W 39, S8, S6, S2 M 11y, A & ILYBNILWY 11/08 Walking away from a bad situation.
So here's an R question for some of you experienced people out there (Women in particular):
I am trying to learn better how to argue (or not argue) with my W. I want to stay strong, stand up for myself, and in general not get sucked into it.
But is difficult because of the way these arguments proceed. Here is an example:
W (out of the blue): I want to work out early tomorrow morning. (Note, early mornings are when I normally work out. As a SAHM she normally finds time during the day. Our gym has childcare.)
Me: I was planning to work out then. That would mean that I don't get a chance to work out tomorrow, and I don't want to do that.
W: (Escalating Immediately) Why are you so inflexible? Why is everything all about you? Why are you being such a jerk? It's just like that weekend when you...! You always...!
At this point, my blood boils and my instinct is to begin a point by point defense of each of her attacks. Now I am learning to bite my tongue and not respond to those (with some success...it's not easy)
The net effect, however, is to leave me speechless. About all I could manage was an "I'm sorry you feel that way" and then to walk away after a long pause in which she turned away and busied herself with some meaningless task.
The Old Me would have folded just to keep the peace, and then been resentful.
The New Me...is still a bit tongue tied and unsure of himself in these situations.
Last edited by Thinker; 05/07/0908:47 PM.
Me 42, W 39, S8, S6, S2 M 11y, A & ILYBNILWY 11/08 Walking away from a bad situation.
My H and I have the same workout schedule. He is early morning, and I do it during the baby's naptime. I would never ask to do it early morning because I don't ever want to stand in the way of his workout.
Does she have a good reason to want to work out in the morning for just one day? Or, is she just wanting to take the morning slot?
I would hope that my H and I could switch to solution mode, and say "OK, I'll just go earlier at 5am and you go at 6am. If you want to do this on a continual basis, maybe we can work out a schedule so that we share the earlier shift."
Would that work?
If she's just asking for one day, no biggie to be flexible and just skip a day... no?
We never really get into solution mode. She comes into the discussion with a statement of what she is going to do. (ie I am busy tomorrow during the day, so therefore I am going to work out during the early morning) It seems like her assumption is that it is therefore my responsibility to re-arrange and move to a different time. When I don't fold quietly and immediately she get's angry and escalates the argument. By sentence 3 we are not talking about the issue and solutions, she is making broad, sweeping negative attacks on my character.
I think part of my issue is understanding the differences between being flexible and cooperative, and being walked on - or to state it the other way the differences between standing up for myself and being unreasonably inflexible.
Last edited by Thinker; 05/07/0909:02 PM.
Me 42, W 39, S8, S6, S2 M 11y, A & ILYBNILWY 11/08 Walking away from a bad situation.
Have you read the original Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus?
It will help you understand her broad, sweeping negative attacks, and also help you know that when she says "never" and "always" she is not meaning them literally. You have to basically just wash right past that and not focus on those words if you want to avoid a fight.
Your reaction to want to defend yourself on each and every one of her points is a normal male reaction. Unfortunately yes, it will just lead to a fight because the way you go about tearing her words apart will make it clear to her that you didn't really "hear her point".
Just a guess and I don't know your full situation, but I think what she is really saying is that she feels you feel that your life and your schedule is more important than hers, and the fact that you feel that way pisses her off. Again, I don't know your situation, I'm just trying to help you decode the female-speak.
She doesn't want you to fold quietly, she wants you to acknoweldge that you have been acting like your schedule is more important than hers. Whether that's true or not doesn't matter, its how she FEELS about it that she is trying to tell you. When she is throwing out other examples of how she felt you put her schedule beneath hers, again she isn't arguing about what actually happened. She is trying to give you examples of other times she FELT that way....
Hope that helps, but the M/V book will help even more!
W: (Escalating Immediately) Why are you so inflexible? Why is everything all about you? Why are you being such a jerk? It's just like that weekend when you...! You always...!
Keep your emotions in check and really listen to what she is saying. You did a good job with your response. If things start to warmup a little I would be prepared to stand your ground. She used to two words that are clues - everything and always. Have you read "Learned Optimism" ? Google it and read about it.
Another good question to ask is, "How can I help you?" She was asking for help and didn't get it. So she went off, not good communication on her part but you are the Thinker man. You can handle it.
M22,H45,W45 S21/18D12 Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
I notice that I get angry when... don't laugh... my H is home on weekends and makes sure that I'm aware that I'm on duty with our baby because he has to take a dump. I try to keep my anger inside because I almost don't understand it myself, but, WTF????? I certainly don't have a babysitter at my fingertips when I have to use the bathroom, do I? I just make it work. Why can't he just make it work and not pin me down once again?
The thought process seems crazy, right? I mean, he's actually trying to be considerate in letting me know that he's going to be unavailable for a bit... But it makes me crazy mad and I feel bad that those feelings rise up in me. (Because he is the hard-working breadwinner, provider, great Dad, awesome H...)
The SAHM life is so rewarding, but it is endless. You never get a real break. Even when your H is home, you are still there and on duty. Even when you take an afternoon to see a GF, you are still on call...
In case that gives you any perspective.
Anyway, the Mars/Venus book is a great suggestion.
Just a guess and I don't know your full situation, but I think what she is really saying is that she feels you feel that your life and your schedule is more important than hers, and the fact that you feel that way pisses her off.
I think you are spot-on here DQ.
I also think / realize that I am feeling exactly the same way. I have self-sacrificed myself (by giving in, changing my own plans, etc) so many times in the past, that now when she asks, my emotional gut-reaction is to say "no". In this particular case I can see that my own reaction (still ongoing) has very little to do with not wanting to reschedule / change this one event or make this one accommodation, and very much to do with not wanting to feel like I am being taken advantage of or backing down (again) just because she got angry.
Last edited by Thinker; 05/07/0909:44 PM.
Me 42, W 39, S8, S6, S2 M 11y, A & ILYBNILWY 11/08 Walking away from a bad situation.
I am trying to work through this argument in order to understand myself and my own responses, and also to understand her a bit better, so your perspectives really do help.
I have read Mars & Venus (and learned optimism) but it was several months ago now - amazing how fast we forget and how big the gap is between intellectual understanding and practical application to your own emotions.
Thanks
Me 42, W 39, S8, S6, S2 M 11y, A & ILYBNILWY 11/08 Walking away from a bad situation.
to cooperate you have to fight fair. The problem with fighting fair is it takes two people. Statements such as "you always..., and you never..." are examples of unfair fighting. If you are trying to work something out, you both need to erase that from the vocabulary. there are rules to getting along in a marriage. You can learn them at a Retrouvaille weekend.
