Puppy, from your own experience, you said this "I disagree. People in affairs are ADDICTED to the affair, and HOWEVER you get them to end it, and come back, you can THEN begin to work on the underlying problems of the marriage." -well thats the approach you took with your WAW.
Not all A's are addictions, they can be a necessary pschological life stage, learning experience or in some cases, actual love. I'm sorry, I understand you need to calmly explain how him not spending his leave there affects the kids, but that wasnt what I thought the convo was about (sorry, I thought it was in the context of giving the M another try)...but I just dont think its about the kids, it has to be about YOU. You have to be the greener grass.
"he knows that i am faithfully attending church and that I have a strong faith in the Lord. He once did, too. That is not guilt, it is fact. I do not see where I used religion as guilt."
If he isnt so connected with the Church anymore, then mentioning you have church things on, will probably only add to his guilt, or, will make the gulf between you seem wider. And guilt is the enemy to reconciliation accroding to my db coach ! In which case, dont tell him about it? Keep it for yourself.
If I feel ill nowadays, I never tell my ex, as he doesnt want to handle that.. I deal with it myself. I see the comparison with alot of woman on thse boards that have a strong faith, but their WAH doesnt, or doesnt anymore. They dont attend church for a reason, perhaps that IS linked to the A, or their choices, or just a loss of faith. Either way.. being vocal about your faith is likely to add to their guilt and shame about leaving the M and "the spiritual path" and NOT draw them closer. Thats what I meant. A reminder that they have 'strayed', not that you used religion per se to guilt him?
I hope the changes you have been making are making him question his choices though, as thats the real way to do it hey!
Puppy, from your own experience, you said this "I disagree. People in affairs are ADDICTED to the affair, and HOWEVER you get them to end it, and come back, you can THEN begin to work on the underlying problems of the marriage." -well thats the approach you took with your WAW.
Not all A's are addictions, they can be a necessary pschological life stage, learning experience or in some cases, actual love.
Ali, again, I disagree. That is not my opinion or my own personal experience -- it is a physiological FACT. Google "love addiction PEA endorphines" sometime. When in love or especially in early stages of infatuation, our brains become AWASH in endorphines and PEAs and these "love chemicals" even show up on CAT scans!
This doesn't excuse the behavior, or the initial decision to have an affair, which can be caused by any sort of initial reasons including an abusive spouse. But ONCE ENTERED INTO, you're dealing with a physiological addiction and all of its attraction, including a very real, physical withdrawal once it is ended.
The FWAWs and AWAWs on these very board also attest to this sad truth.
Again, I'm not saying that the separation of the addict from the source of their addiction is a solution in and of itself. It is, however, a necessary first step, as the cheating spouse's affair partner may not be the real PROBLEM in the marriage, but they are CERTAINLY the most immediate OBSTACLE.
The thing i will say.. my Mum and Dad have been together 40 years, but alot of their friends got D over the years. Yes, the men felt guilty, dreadfully guilty about the kids.. BUT.. not one of them ever stayed because of te children. I remember hearing my Mum talk about various guys who hung on ONLY for the kids, but got more unhappy and then left altogether. So in terms of your convo.. I also thought it a bit counterproductive to load on him so much about what this is doing to the kids. You dont want him to come back becuase of them, you want him to come back to YOU. And I doubt it would work anyway, using the kids, or their suffering, as a lever to make him come back.
I disagree. People in affairs are ADDICTED to the affair, and HOWEVER you get them to end it, and come back, you can THEN begin to work on the underlying problems of the marriage.
But first you have to separate the addict from the source of their addiction.
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I also dont thikn you should tell him he can move back, with conditions... this has got to be his decision and he probably wont react well to you telling him that.
You can't DB based on whether or not you think a cheating spouse will "react well." You need to operate from a basis of "What is the RIGHT THING to do? What would God Himself have me do if He were standing right here in front of me??" Jesus forgave the adultress, but He also told her to "Go and sin no more." He preached turning the other cheek, but He also summoned up righteous indignation and threw over the moneychangers' tables when they were defiling the temple.
Even friends have boundaries. That's healthy.
Puppy
Agreed
Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~ SMW
M40/H36 T16/M14 4K B2/08 S4/08 current
Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance. I Corinthians 13:7
I don't see this as SMW "guilting" her husband at all. It sounds to me like she gave him a nicely self-differeniated dose of reality. "This is the effect your behavior is having on your children." It's entirely too easy for WAS's, while lost in a fog, to completely disregard the consequences of their behavior on others for whom they are responsible. I know, mine has continually done the same. This has nothing to do with manipulating him to come back by using the children! It's simply hard, cold fact that his children are struggling, they were so looking forward to their father coming back because they need and love him--and when he returned, he chose to spend his leave with OW and HER children. Completely irresponsible. The fact that he understood that SMW "must really love him" is testimony that he understands her standing for her marriage and communicating that to DH, as well as seeing that she is setting some pretty darn clear boundaries.
I think it was brilliantly communicated, and undoubtedly involved some divine inspiration. Good for you, SMW! He's hearing you; his heart is being softened. Who knows if that will continue or if he will harden his heart against the truth again. But for now, stay the course!
It was ALL divine inspiration, HM!!
You are right, though, I did not say what I did to guilt him. It was a plea for him to think about how his irrational actions are hurting the kids. He needs to be more considerate of how his choices are affecting them. The kids are terrified he is going to disappear again. As a result of him leaving the way he did, S3 will no longer go to the nursery at church--he insists on coming upstairs with me to the sanctuary so that I "not leave him". Imagine a 3y/o so scared of being abandoned that he will sit still and behave through an hour an a half of church. This is what I am trying to convey to him. He has to think, not just act.
I know he is hearing me, the question is, is he actually listening, or is it just white noise to him? No matter. I will continue to live my life the way God is directing me. I will continue to be at peace with who I am in Christ and live my life accordingly.
Living God's blessing with grace and dignity~ SMW
M40/H36 T16/M14 4K B2/08 S4/08 current
Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance. I Corinthians 13:7
Amen to that, Puppy! Jesus forgave the adultress, but in telling her "Go and sin no more," he showed her clearly what are the appropriate boundaries and behavior.
SMW is absolutely correct: allowing the children to continue to exposed to this behavior is damaging to them. They're clearly struggling with it. Setting the boundary protects them, first and foremost. That's the priority.
Until DH comes home, the children will ALWAYS be my first priority.
Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~ SMW
M40/H36 T16/M14 4K B2/08 S4/08 current
Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance. I Corinthians 13:7
I know the next mission after this one (Piecing) will be even more challenging and God has to make sure I am ready for it. SMW
AMEN, Sister. It's a whole different ball game. But I know you will do it with style! You know I think your conversation was A-OK because you hadn't had one like that before. I think we talked about how that was my stance from the moment the bomb dropped and stayed that way for 99 percent of the time. He will now be able to see the peace within you and will see those glimpses of what will be upon reconcillation.
Thanks for the continued support and late night phone calls! Remember, the phone lines go both ways and before you react to something from H, call me first to talk you down!
I felt the same about the conversation--it had never occurred and was well overdue. Now I will continue to exude the grace, dignity, and quiet strength that the Lord has imbued me with.
Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~ SMW
M40/H36 T16/M14 4K B2/08 S4/08 current
Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance. I Corinthians 13:7
Puppy, from your own experience, you said this "I disagree. People in affairs are ADDICTED to the affair, and HOWEVER you get them to end it, and come back, you can THEN begin to work on the underlying problems of the marriage." -well thats the approach you took with your WAW.
that was low and uncalled for. PDT's wife has THANKED him for ending her A.
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Not all A's are addictions, they can be a necessary pschological life stage, learning experience or in some cases, actual love. I'm sorry, I understand you need to calmly explain how him not spending his leave there affects the kids, but that wasnt what I thought the convo was about (sorry, I thought it was in the context of giving the M another try)...but I just dont think its about the kids, it has to be about YOU. You have to be the greener grass.
I was the greener grass long before the OW came on the scene. I just forgot I was for a while, making it easier for DH to forget. But, I will do whatever it takes to protect the kids and DH knows that will include cutting him out of our lives.
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"he knows that i am faithfully attending church and that I have a strong faith in the Lord. He once did, too. That is not guilt, it is fact. I do not see where I used religion as guilt."
If he isnt so connected with the Church anymore, then mentioning you have church things on, will probably only add to his guilt, or, will make the gulf between you seem wider. And guilt is the enemy to reconciliation accroding to my db coach ! In which case, dont tell him about it? Keep it for yourself.
I do not shove church at him. When he came for D9's baptism, it was because she asked, not me. I only mentioned the meeting with pastor because it dealt with the kids. Anything other than that is mentioned strictly from a logistical stand point. Even the game night this Friday with the kids was mentioned to let him know the kids were not going to be available. So, DH opted to go to be with the kids.
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If I feel ill nowadays, I never tell my ex, as he doesnt want to handle that.. I deal with it myself. I see the comparison with alot of woman on thse boards that have a strong faith, but their WAH doesnt, or doesnt anymore. They dont attend church for a reason, perhaps that IS linked to the A, or their choices, or just a loss of faith. Either way.. being vocal about your faith is likely to add to their guilt and shame about leaving the M and "the spiritual path" and NOT draw them closer. Thats what I meant. A reminder that they have 'strayed', not that you used religion per se to guilt him?
Again, any mention of church is done as a means of handling the logistics of DH seeing the kids.
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I hope the changes you have been making are making him question his choices though, as thats the real way to do it hey!
The changes are for me, whether he comes back or not. I like me, more than I have in a long time, if ever. He will question it, if only because it is such a drastic change. He might even question whether he has a place here anymore. He will have to figure that out for himself.
Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~ SMW
M40/H36 T16/M14 4K B2/08 S4/08 current
Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance. I Corinthians 13:7
Puppy, from your own experience, you said this "I disagree. People in affairs are ADDICTED to the affair, and HOWEVER you get them to end it, and come back, you can THEN begin to work on the underlying problems of the marriage." -well thats the approach you took with your WAW.
Not all A's are addictions, they can be a necessary pschological life stage, learning experience or in some cases, actual love.
Ali, again, I disagree. That is not my opinion or my own personal experience -- it is a physiological FACT. Google "love addiction PEA endorphines" sometime. When in love or especially in early stages of infatuation, our brains become AWASH in endorphines and PEAs and these "love chemicals" even show up on CAT scans!
This doesn't excuse the behavior, or the initial decision to have an affair, which can be caused by any sort of initial reasons including an abusive spouse. But ONCE ENTERED INTO, you're dealing with a physiological addiction and all of its attraction, including a very real, physical withdrawal once it is ended.
The FWAWs and AWAWs on these very board also attest to this sad truth. Again, I'm not saying that the separation of the addict from the source of their addiction is a solution in and of itself. It is, however, a necessary first step, as the cheating spouse's affair partner may not be the real PROBLEM in the marriage, but they are CERTAINLY the most immediate OBSTACLE.
Puppy
it is the first change that HAS to be made in order for any other progress to be made.
Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~ SMW
M40/H36 T16/M14 4K B2/08 S4/08 current
Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance. I Corinthians 13:7
I agree the WA has to end the affair. BUT, using the kids, well... IMO is the wrong way to do it. I agree with Ali on this one, and from my experience with H, they hardly even listen to that. They think "we are making things up and blame us for it". My H had to be told about the kids by everyone (teachers, Cs, family) BUT me to start considering the effect a bit.
Also, I have to say, it is never a strong enough motive for them to change behavior. Maybe because of the endorphines as Puppy says. Remember all these men and women, LEFT their lovely homes AND kids to "escape" and live their "dream". You think they had no idea of the pain they would cause? I doubt that. Some of them are even coming from divorced families and know exactly the kind of pain they would cause and still walked out.
I can understand why you told him all these things. I did it too. But I am afraid, unless something else happens, you will see no result from it. And I will agree with Al, shame and guilt at this stage, could possibly have the opposite effect, at least for a while until he thinks things thru by himself.
What I did, and did have an effect after many months of keeping kid's anxiety and issues to myself, was make him deal with them directly, not protect him anymore. The kids themselves had the biggest impact on him. Stay strong, K
Maybe I am wrong, and SMW correct me if I am, but I think the main focus of SMW telling her H what was going on with their kids was for the sake of their kids and the impact his actions were having on his relationship (or lack thereof) with their children.
It appears that it has had a positive effect in that her H is already stepping up the amount of time he is scheduling to be with his kids and the involvement in their lives.
As a parent, I think that SMW had an obligation to let her H know the emotional impact his actions were having with their children. I do not think she did it to guilt/shame him in to coming back to her.
