PD, well that didnt go as I hoped it would at all! Im sorry that shes still in a fog. I think that your goals are wise ones, get her home then see how things go.
Is it wise to let her take your kids out of the country? Ive know people who have a tough time getting their kids back when they go to another state, let alone another continent!
I guess I gave the wrong finger to the wrong man...
I have to say though that it wasn't totally unexpected. If you really want to save your M, you're going to have to go back and really understand where she's coming from (i.e. showing compassion).
I think you need to back off a little in terms of demanding her to come back home or else. She's told you time and time again why she doesn't want to come home (things not changing, no friends, no career, etc.). Address those things first. Remember in the beginning you were willing to be patient and make the environment "safe" for her to come back? Well she needs to feel that way again.
First off, she's pretty much said (in not so many words) that you got what you wanted while she doesn't have anything. By arguing with her to come back, you're repeating the same pattern of getting what you want first, then her needs second. Or at least that's how she sees it.
It's obvious she's afraid that the minute she comes back, you're going to shut the door of her "cage" and she's going to be trapped forever.
All of the things in the conversation that you mentioned as anti-DB were exactly that. Like it says in the book and what all of us on the boards are going through is that you can't MAKE or TELL our spouses that we've changed. You can only do it through SHOWING them. Your sitch is harder since she's away, but you can still do it. You already had until this backslide.
This is going to have to involve your kids as well in terms of you telling them to give their mom a break. As much as you disagree with it, she's still their mother and they need to respect her no matter what her decision is.
Unfortunately it will take lots of time and patience. You've said so yourself that what she went through over the YEARS. Do you think a few weeks is going to erase all of that? You've got to slowly wear away at the wall she's built up. Rather than banging against it by demanding she come back, go back to asking her how she's feeling and LISTEN. Seriously LISTEN. Don't disagree with her, don't argue, just see where she's coming from and understand. Once you truly understand her needs, you'll be able to come up with a gameplan.
But it comes down to one thing...are you willing to FIGHT for your M? Are you willing to take the time and PATIENCE to do this? I've been at this for over a year and once I figured this out, I am just now starting to re-attract my W. Look at some of the posters who have been here for 5 years or more and are just now seeing results. That's patience.
It's understandable if you want to throw in the towel. I mean, who wants to go through all this day after day? But if you want to change your M and make it better than it was before, you're going to have to start from square one.
What is it that you want?
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
You know what is kind of ironic now is that my XW will occasionally say "you've changed Kerry". I tell her to stop saying that as it is not constructive.
I am a bit jaded, but I did observe that by myself filing for a D, drawing financial and custodial boundaries, and detaching did have some effect in having my W ask me to be given another chance right before the D was official. But her actions were the telling part for me and I decided "no way" can I take a chance and let her put the kids and I through turmoil.
I dont know what you could do to make the environment safe for your W. I believe she has some other personal issues and no matter where she lives, she is going to have problems. Until she comes to some huge awakening (possibly through religion) will she then want to realize that you are a good guy worth loving. I am a firm believer that love is a choice.
As stuck808 says, how long are you willing to endure this quasi marriage state. I have read some here go for 3 years and end up somewhat broken or bitter. But there is always a chance and it will be something that only you can decide. I was told by the counselor to set a timeline and you might want to do that also.
PD, I think you are doing the right thing now by being somewhat firm. If it does not work out, I am sure that you will come out ok. Let's hope your W discovers that she is responsible for her happiness and does not use you and the kids as an excuse.
I called the W today. She said that she was going to call today to continue the discussion, but she hadn't by noon, so I called her. She was at home, making some pudding before going to bed. We made small talk for a while and then I asked her if she wanted to tell me anything. She said no, so I said, OK, what about our conversation from the yesterday? She said there wasn't anything in particular she wanted to talk about. I asked her if she knew that I was going to file on Monday. She said she knew. I asked her what she thought about that. She said she didn't know. I asked her if this was what she wanted. She said she didn't want it. I asked her what she wanted. She didn't know.
I said that she had three choices: stay there and we divorce and she won't see the kids, or be in their lives, come home and divorce and she can split time with the kids and I will be on the hook for spousal support and child support, or come home and reconcile and spend all the time with the kids while we put this marriage back on the rails. She said she was worried about not having a car when she came back. I told her that a car is just a car; we can always get another car. It might not be as nice and fancy as her expedition, but it will get her around.
I then told her that if she came home, we might still divorce anyway. Probably a step backward, I realized after the fact. She questioned the reason in coming back if we were just going to divorce anyway. I told her that a divorce was not what I wanted, and that her coming home didn't presuppose a divorce, but that this was primarily for the kids, first, and then for us. She seemed receptive to the idea. She then said it was getting late (almost 10pm there) and she does go to bed early usually. I asked her when she could tell me what her decision was, and that I wasn't going to give her an open schedule. She said she would call me tomorrow morning.
I hung up with her and my S17 yelled to me to come downstairs. I came down and he said, Mom told me last night why she isn't coming home. I said, really? I just got off the phone and she didn't mention one word about being unable to come home. He told me that she had gotten her German Citizenship back and was no longer a US citizen, and as such she couldn't leave the country! I was initially very skeptical about this because when she had looked into this before she found (or at least told me that she found) that it would take 4 years of living in country, and show income before she could get her citizenship reinstated. Of course, that is what she told me, and given her track record for lying and distorting what she has been up to, it certainly is a possibility that she has done something like this. Even if she was now a German citizen, she could still come here under an immigrant visa and get a green card again, so half of me wants to think she was just making up an excuse to tell me S17 why she wasn't coming back. It is definitely something I am going to bring up with her in the AM.
Roller-coaster. She wants to come back; is apprehensive about the changes; doesn't want to live here; might be a German citizen again. It just doesn't end, does it?
Stuck: I hear ya man. I know that this takes time: time that she is running out of. She is still ailing, has no money or income, seems genuinely sad, depressed, and pines for her kids, but there is still something major holding her back from jumping on a plane and coming home. I don't think she has been 100% honest with me or anyone else for that matter about what it is. I didn't even learn about the car she had bought until about 2 weeks after everyone there knew she had one!
I do want a better M than we had, and she seems to want that, too. Of course, it's all words until she is back home, and maybe that is why I was pushing so hard. It seems to have had an effect as I have talked to her three times in the last two days and gotten some marginally positive vibes, when compared with my expectations. I'll see what she has to say tomorrow about the citizenship issue. If true, that might be the sticky wicket, but even if true, it is not insurmountable.
Me40 WAW37 M18 T20 S18,14 D13 EA Bomb 6/08 Sep 11/20/08 Ret 08/09 Sep/Filed 11/09
Did you go to Multnomah falls this weekend? I was at Safari Sams with the kids on Saturday and watched outside as that freak storm came howling through. It looked almost like there might have been a tornado nearby.
That is strange about the German citizenship.
I would imagine that OM has been filling her brain with fog and that is why she is so uncertain. It sure would be nice to have a tree fall on that guy - things would become more clear to your W then.
"but there is still something major holding her back from jumping on a plane and coming home. "
That issue is you. Sorry to have to put it that way, but she's just responding naturally to your ultimatums. In the three choices you gave her, which one actually benefits her? None of them. You have to get to where she's coming from so you can guide her to the choice that's mutually beneficial to you both.
Right now your tone to her is like a father to a rebellious teenage daughter. Not a H who wants to be with this person as an equal. That's what the OM is treating her like. An equal.
We've all been where you are and it's tough as sh*t. That's why you have to look at the bigger picture. If you want to get your W back, you're going to have to lighten up the pressure just a little. From your second call, it really didn't sound like you cared anymore. And more than anything it sounded more like pity for your W than out of compassion. Is that what you want? To have a W that you pity? Of course she doesn't want your pity either. Just your respect.
She said it best. She doesn't know what to do. If you ease up a little and make it safe for her to come back, she will. At least she's on the fence. My W flat out told me she was leaving and never coming back. But she's here now.
Maybe write down all of the things she had issues with about coming back home and then see if there's anyway you can help her find resources for them. But don't be insulted, mad or hurt if she doesn't listen to them. Just do it because.
You've only been at this for 3 months. You've been M for 19 years. Is giving more time worth it? It's up to you. I wasn't willing to give up on 17 years of being together for 1 month, 1 year, 15 months, whatever.
You've read all of the books about compassion, etc. But do you really understand them? I read alot too but it wasn't only until I really sat and absorbed everything that I understood my W.
Good luck whatever your decision.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
