I have trouble in my own mind that going with sandi's post in which she says I am being bullied etc and I need to stand up to my wife will cause more anger and resentment. The 180's I feel are to change things, calm volatile situations etc.
The two seem to clash.
Last edited by markhaving probs; 05/01/0910:50 AM.
Bomb dropped: 19/12/08 Me:48 WAW:41 D:10 S:6 Married: 15 years
There's the cunundrum - By 'manning up' which most posters feel I need to do to restore pride and respect and also to stop my wife exploiting me will mean taking her on which will involve more arguments, standing my ground etc. Whether this will mean she then calms down and understands my decision could influence how we feel. She has such a strong personality she will argue black is white and she seems to have a clarity when engaging in a row. I seem to lose my train of thought and then my argument loses credibility.
On the other hand the 180's will provide a degree of clarity, purpose and if worked on effectively and duration will negate some of the negativity between us. The boundaries would be set here in a more calm way I feel. If I could also 'man up' during 180's I am getting the best of both worlds. I just need to rewrite my 180's to include a way of restoring respect.
This
Bomb dropped: 19/12/08 Me:48 WAW:41 D:10 S:6 Married: 15 years
Just a quick comment Mark. Manning up needn't necessarily mean taking on or having more arguments with your wife. Make a choice not to get drawn in to an argument. Walk away from it.
Kev
Me: 32, Wife: 22 Son: 2 Married: 2 years Separated: January 5th 2009
Sometimes you have to become lost before you can find yourself.
Maybe I am missing the point with 'manning up'. My interpretation is if in my case I feel that my wife has crossed a boundary I have set or wants to engage, then in her WAW state she will see the opportunity for a conflict if I disagree or propose a different solution. As she could have an argument in an empty room, she does not need much encouragement to start a row.
Kev, in walking away from an argument the issue does not get resolved. 'Thinking time' does not come into my wife's vocabulary, once she makes a decision she does not change it. I hope this is not the case in our relarionship. In fact, since the bomb some of my friends would say how difficult she could be during a discussion over dinner, she never wavered in her opinion to the point where my friends would just end the conversation rather than argue the point.
I have walked away from arguments only for it to re-occur later. Please can you give me exampleas of what would be seen as 'manning up'.
J, my wife and her father spent all day in our garden, she texted me the following day all very nicely to ask me if I would clear the 10 rubbish bags from the garden. I felt this had crossed a boundary because she was ok to clear the garden with her dad and the children, though I thought this would have been a nice thing for us to do as it would have given me time with the children and some interaction with my wife without conflict, but she chose not to, but I would be the donkey to dispose of the rubbish. I refused, she ranted and raved, and the bags are still there. Since then, she has been funny all week with me. I see that as a disrespectful instance.
I feel the need to have to try and analyse everything in my head she does or says to see if she is crossing a boundary. Today for instance she sends me a text to ask me if I wanted her to give the children dinner before I picked them up at 6.00pm. I said yes please, she then RANG me and said could I as they will have a sandwich at 4.00pm as they will be hungry and I could give then dinner when they arrive. I said to her - "well if you wanted me to give them dinner, why ask if you should?".
I do not know if this was another test to see if I would stand up to her, but to be honest I am getting so tired trying to understand what is going on. I saw it as an opportunity for me to cook dinner for my children so I am the winner here.
DR is a very powerful tool but I do not seem to able to use it effectively, unless I am missing something.
Last edited by markhaving probs; 05/01/0901:15 PM.
Bomb dropped: 19/12/08 Me:48 WAW:41 D:10 S:6 Married: 15 years
Mark, You have receive some excellent advice here. I think you seem to think that you only have two options when you have an argument with your wife. One option is to give in and 'be nice'. The other option is to 'man up' and have an argument with her. You and your wife have been in this cycle for a long, long, long time. In order to faciliate this separation and in hopes of a reconciliation in the future, you will need to break this cycle but you don't know how right?
I was in the same boat. My H thought the same way so in the end he felt very bullied because he was giving in all the time to 'play nice'. I didn't realize what he was doing because he never told me what he wanted, he just went along with the program.
What we needed was an honest discussions of options and then work out a compromise. E.g. Wife: I would like you to help me take the rubbish to the dump. Husband: I would like to help you but I cannot do it today. How about next Saturday when I have some free time? Wife: That would be fine. Thanks very much.
You see, what you wife saw the was stuff you WERE NOT doing in the relationship. I am the same way. I saw tons of stuff that my H should have been aware of if only he would pay attention to my needs and the needs of the children. It was because he was not ENGAGED that he didn't even realize we had needs. I hear that in the convos you posted here. That is why she thinks you are SELFISH, it's because you have not been anticipating the family and her needs.
It doesn't justify her ending the M or having an affair. It should have justified some Counselling or reading M books together and having frank discussions on how to improve things.
What I am saying is, you W have been trying to tell you for years that you have not been attending her her and the children's needs. She is still very angry about it. So I think one of your 180's for your M and also for YOURSELF is to think of others and put yourself in their shoes. I am not saying be a doormat. I am just saying that you might want to make life a little easier for the kids, like Kev said, and have some of their things at your place and make it comfortable for them. Anticipate their needs. Do this for the kids and also to improve yourself, not to appease your W. But do let her see that you have changed yourself in this VERY IMPORTANT ASPECT that was lacking in your M. Don't tell her you are doing this. Just do these things and slowly she will notice.
Anticipating needs of other people will endear them to you. It will also improve YOUR other relationships. It is not a doormat strategy, it is just courtesy and thoughtfulness. Great traits for anyone to have.
Your W is worried that you will not have food for the kids when they arrived. That is why she called you. You think she called to ask WHETHER you will feed the kids. Don't take that too literally. She is using women's roundabout way of asking you to give food to the children. I know it's convoluted but that's how women speak in a polite manner. They don't ask directly because then it might sound too bossy. They hint. Other women can easily pick up the hint but men don't think that way and easily miss the hints. I think this has happened many many times in your M so since you don't pick up the hints, your W thinks you are inconsiderate for not doing what she is asking. This is covered extremely well in the book 'Men are from Mars, women are from Venus' by John Gray. You may want a read.
In regards to how she thinks about you. She is still very very angry with you. You interpret this as she has already moved on and settled on a 'new life'. I disagree. I interpret this as she is still attached to you but is fighting the attachment so she is doing many things to destroy your R and to justify her decision to leave this M.
DB coach said that hate is not the opposite of love, indifference is. So as long as it is not indifference you are leaving, you still got a shot.
In my humble opinion if your W is making rash decisions because she is angry at you, there is not much you can do to stop being angry. Time will take care of a lot of her anger. When she calms down, she may be able to see things in a more rational light. But the anger now is clouding her judgment of her M and your FEAR of losing her is holding you back on a healthy recovery of yourself.
So I ask you to face your FEAR. Again, in my humble opinion, your fear is that you will lose her forever. How to combat this fear? The only way is to face it. The only way is to say to yourself, I have no control of this fear, I have to let go of her.
In your mind, imagine a life without her. Imagine that you can be happy. Imagine a happy life with fulfilling relationships with your kids and your family. Imagine finding a job that you can enjoy everyday. Imagine restoring your self-esteem and feeling good about being the man you always wanted to become. Start looking for opportunities in your life. (Not related to other women.) But with interests, with good books, with hobbies, with new friends, with church groups, whatever tickles your fancy. Imagine you are in a happy state of mind and start small steps towards that journey.
How? One day at a time. Just tell yourself when you wake up in the morning. I am going to have a good day. I will NOT let anyone ruin this day for me. Then sit down and think about what you can do for your kids. Anticipate their needs. Then when you hear their voices or see their faces with your 'surprises', give yourself a big pat on the back. Tell yourself, I was a good father today. I feel good about being a good dad.
Now, your W will always find ways in which you are lacking. Don't worry about it. Baby steps. You are new at this, remember? You need practice being an 'engaged' dad. Encourage yourself with every small success, even if she is slow to acknowledge your efforts. Start giving yourself happiness by being your own cheerleader. She is not responsible for your happiness, YOU are. Slowly, slowly, you and your W will notice that you have changed and that the changes you made are here to stay and not just to impress her and make her change her mind.
You can do it, Mark. I know you are willing to learn. You being on this BB tells me that you are not resistant to change but is just lost as to how to change.
She doesn't want the old you, You don't want the new her. So give it a rest. Stop trying so hard to get her back.
Develop the R that you DO have. The one with your kids. Be engaged in what is important for them. If they are into sports, don't just go and watch them, get into it with them, play with them. Your kids want your attention now. I promise GREAT REWARDS will come if you focus your energy on them NOW.
Me:39 H:40 S:9 D:7 First Bomb ONS:June 07 Second Bomb OW: March 08 Separated: March 08 M:15 yrs T:18 yrs H deep into A with OW Achieved ACCEPTANCE May 30, 09
"I don't want any tablets in the house as I sometimes have an urge to go the medicine cabinet looking for tablets to take an OD with."
you wrote this. if you would consider killing yourself over a woman you might need to step back from the situation and ask yourself, is this person bringing out the best in me?
when you answer this honestly to yourself you will know which way to start walking. it is one step at a time to get yourself out of this hole. the quicker you take the next step away from this depression the quicker it is going to get better. RUN!
SteveMcQueen
"So I'll meet you at the bottom if there really is one They always told me when you hit it you'll know it But I've been falling so long it's like gravity's gone and I'm just floating"
What do you think Mark?