Holding onto Hope

[In Limbo]

Before heading back home tomorrow and back to the craziness my life has become, I want to set some goals. I guess I figure if I post them, maybe I'll feel more accountable. Below are my five short term goals to accomplish in the next 5 days:
Continue to lose weight (25+ lbs so far! Woo hoo!)
Go 5 days without bringing up R or OW with H and without crying in front of him
Go 1 day without crying over H
Find an exercise class of some sort to sign up for and DO IT within the next week
Do 5 fun things with my boys - give them my best, not the empty shell they've been getting

[aliveandkicking]

I totally relate to the "empty shell" thing...can you get more specific about what you can do with your boys? I need to do the same thing.

[In Limbo]

Below are a few of the ideas I'm thinking. What I'm trying to do is to just do little things for us to bond.

Play games - Uno is one of our favorites
Find a festival or other fun outdoor activity and go
Take the boys and the dog to the dog park and play
Cuddle and talk
Go bowling
Go skating
Go out in the backyard and toss a football, baseball or frisbee
Fly a kite
Go to a play at the local children's theater
Go to a movie
Rent/watch a movie and eat popcorn, cuddled up together
Read a book then talk about it
Go for a walk, look for interesting things (with boys that usually means bugs, rocks, etc.)

Maybe you could think of some too and share with me. I've always been very close to my boys (probably to the detriment of my M). It's hard to admit, but the past several weeks I've found that I don't feel the connection to them that I always have. Sometimes I wonder if it's because things seem to be better with H when they're not around or if it's because both H and I see the beginnings of the big problems in M after having kids. I have been a horrible mom the past several weeks and that's not fair to them. They've got a dad in MLC, they don't need a mom gone off the deep end too. I've got to be their rock right now regardless of what I'm going through. I'm going to try to remember also that DB is for them as well. I can't control whether H interacts with them, has good R with them or anything else H does so I need to just let it go. The other thing I plan to do is get them in to see a C that specializes in working with kids going through D.

How are your boys handling your sitch?

[In Limbo]

It's been 2 days with no tears (yea!) and no R talk with H or tears in front of him since Monday. Tonight I took the boys out to play arcade games and have dinner. We had a great time. Tomorrow night I'll take them to the park, provided the weather cooperates. If not, we may stay home and watch a movie or play games. Weight loss is going well and I'm brainstorming lots of GAL options. Right now my focus is on getting back in the groove of being there for the boys.

I have a question from experienced DBers regarding MC. We have a session tomorrow and I am not sure I really want to bring up any R items. H seems more distant and I'm noticing even more oddities with $ leaving our joint account, credit card charges, etc. I think he's spending $ on OW and/or squirreling it away in a new bank account. I'm thinking it's time for him to completely move out and our separation to become legal in order to protect my financial and emotional interests. So, I'm wondering if that is what we should discuss in MC tomorrow rather than the R since he doesn't want to work on R anyway. There's a part of me that's terrified to even bring up the $ because I know it will just bring lies, anger and manipulation. But I can't be a doormat and maybe in MC would be the safest place to bring it up? It would certainly be a 180 for me to ask for a formal separation of finances and living quarters.

It is just so hard to have so much deception from a H that has previously been so direct and open. He's not the man I married, he's a MLCer that is very different. I just wonder if they ever return to "normal" again or if it's a lost cause. Would someone please pray for us tomorrow that during MC whatever we end up discussing is something that helps move us in a positive direction? I'd appreciate it.

[sandi2]

Dear Limbo,

You said,

“It is just so hard to have so much deception from a H that has previously been so direct and open. He's not the man I married, he's a MLCer that is very different. I just wonder if they ever return to "normal" again or if it's a lost cause. Would someone please pray for us tomorrow that during MC whatever we end up discussing is something that helps move us in a positive direction? I'd appreciate it.”

Do you remember me telling you that this is not the man you married? In this quote, it is as if you try to remember that, yet I believe in your heart, you continue to think and act as though he is the same man as he used to be. That will not work and the longer you continue to pursue that route, you will never be anything but miserable b/c you will constantly be hoping that one day he will suddenly change and you will see the man who loved you and married you. Now, I am a big believer in prayer, but I just do not think that you will end up discussing something that will help him that much in one MC session as you are hoping, b/c you want him to start moving in a positive direction……..and he isn’t ready to do that. Okay, so now you are thinking, “Well, Sandi is just a very negative person!” I hope not, but I am realistic and I do know that in most cases it is not that simple or easy when you have a M with a man in MLC and who is involved with another woman.

Limbo, you said you never wanted to feel that “hopeless” again, but I think it is more of a feeling of "powerless" that you are experiencing. You have given him all your power and you are at his mercy. You let him eat cake and he basically has it made until you change some things, at least in your own home, until then, why should you expect him to change?

You were talking about the boys and improving your R with them and I think that is great, but I noticed one goal and I didn’t know if it was with the boys or your H when you said more cuddling. I hope you were not talking about cuddling with your wayward husband. Also, I did not understand why he gets to stay at your home when you go back from a business meeting and why he would stay there and eat your food and sleep in your bed and have the comforts of your home when it is his turn to be with the boys. Why are you making life so easy on this man who has betrayed you and is continuing to be unfaithful to you? I said it once and I’ll say it again; you are too scared to do what you need to do. You will never get him back until you get rid of the fear and find your courage to be the woman you need to be. He will never really “see” you the way he needs to see you and he sure won’t miss you as long as things continue this way.

So, I hope this statement you made is one that you will consider very much:

I'm thinking it's time for him to completely move out and our separation to become legal in order to protect my financial and emotional interests.

However, I am not so sure that bringing this up at the C session is the right place or way to do it. This may be something that your lawyer needs to handle. Also, if you bring it up at the MC, your H may beat you to the money and make all the financial decions without you there to protect your interest. Depending on your financial assets, but I just think if it were me, I would not bring it up in the MC, in fact, I may cancel that session since it doesn't sound like it would be beneficial to attend. Might even throw your H for a mini-loop!

So, I'm wondering if that is what we should discuss in MC tomorrow rather than the R since he doesn't want to work on R anyway. There's a part of me that's terrified to even bring up the $ because I know it will just bring lies, anger and manipulation.

I would say "no" to that.

But I can't be a doormat and maybe in MC would be the safest place to bring it up? It would certainly be a 180 for me to ask for a formal separation of finances and living quarters.

I agree that you can't be a doormat, but you are letting your fear control you by admitting that it would be safer to bring it up at the MC. I do not think that would be wise at all, Limbo. MC are not lawyer nor finacial advisors. Neither are they your protectors. Get you a lawyer and get something that will keep him out of your home, change the locks and make life a bit hard on him. You have to make a life for you and the boys and if......and that's a big IF.......one of these years your H comes out of MLC (which can take 3 to 5 years for some) and you are still interested, maybe you can think about him then. If you don't take some form of protection over your finances, he will ruin you. I think he has already proven that by his new "car". Be smart, Limbo.

Sandi

[In Limbo]

Sandi,

I only have a few minutes and will respond to your full post later when I can give it the time it deserves. Thank you for replying. It's helpful to read others' sitches, but it is really good to get a reply to your own. I appreciate everything you wrote and agree with what you're saying, especially the part about my fear and feeling powerless. BTW, the "cuddling" was with my boys, part of my list of things to do to have fun with them. I've been successful the past few days in being engaged with them and we've had a lot of fun. I've benefitted as much as they have.

I have a quick question about MLC based on what you've learned. Does a personal crisis ever "shock" someone in MLC into realizing what they've fallen into and help them move out of MLC? Something happened Thursday night that I'll explain later, but it's caused H's eyes to open to what a fool he's been and also given me a perfect opportunity to 180 and he noticed. I'm cautiously optomistic at this point and continuing to try more focus on me and less on H, but I'm wondering if this might be a turning point for H. Sorry I have to go, but I'll get back on later and explain. Can you check back in on me the next time you're online? I'd appreciate being able to continue our posting and to get your advice on my sitch and the changes in the past two days.

[sandi2]

I have a quick question about MLC based on what you've learned. Does a personal crisis ever "shock" someone in MLC into realizing what they've fallen into and help them move out of MLC?

For me, I did have a "shock" or a personal crisis that rocked me to the core. However, I have said over and over that my stitch was sort of an exception b/c of the "lateness" in my life that this happen. I was not in the age range that most people consider MLCers to be, however, I do believe that that was what was happening to me. As for the "shock", I believe it started me on my way to try to get my act together but it still took quite a bit of time with me working to get out of the state I was in. Even when you realize what you are doing and how you are destroying the family and marriage and everything that you have ever known, it just takes a lot of time to get through it. In my personal stitch, I think hormones had a lot to do with some of my feeling as if I was "losing it" at times. But, I don't blame all of that on menopause b/c too much in our MR had led up to what happened to me and what led to the EA. That is why I really don't know how to answer some of the questions presented to me about people's spouses who are in MLC b/c I think I was an exception to the rule (if there is such a thing).

Back to your original question, in case I didn't make myself clear.......I do think if the "shock" is to a great degree that it can make the fog clear up a great deal for that person in MLC but again it is his/her choice as to whether they want to get out of that situation and straighten up and get back on the right track. We may not understand everything that is happening to us at times, but I believe we always have a "choice" as to how we chose about relationships and mostly about how we live our lives.

I hope you can let me know what happened.

Take care,
Sandi

[In Limbo]

Sandi,
First of all, I do not think you are negative AT ALL. I need someone to keep me on track as I tend to be way too accomodating and still struggle daily with pursuing and forgetting this MLC guy is NOT the H that I married. I'll first respond to a few things from your 4/24 post, then catch you up on recent events.

As for our separation situation, we don't really have a full separation right now. He is still living in our house, so him being there when I got back from travel was because that's the setup we have. However, he has been staying in a hotel during weekdays with the idea of that giving him time to think, see if he misses me, whatever. Last week I was about ready to ask him to just find a more permanent place because it was getting too confusing. When he is home, we get along well, behave as a family, talk, ML, etc. When he's not home, he still calls, tells me he loves me, etc. I know he still has some contact with OW, but not sure of the extent. Since you read so many sitches, I'll remind you that this was an EA but maybe not the same kind that you had. None of the communication between them was sexual or physical. H expressed his love for OW and in round about ways gave her compliments about her looks, but she treated it as more friendship and he says that while his feelings for her are not "just friends," they are not sexual. I don't know WHAT that means and still don't understand it, but I do know that they were emotionally intimate, sharing things we didn't, spending an inordinate amount of time online, and keeping everything very secretive and I consider that infidelity.

I initially told him that if he couldn't cut the relationship off with OW that we had no hope in R. However, I now realize that I can't control that and with him in MLC I can't make demands. So he's having contact with her but keeping it secret I'm sure. I am doing my best to stop snooping and stop trying to figure out what he's doing. I read somewhere that when your mind starts down a path you don't need to go down to imagine a Stop Sign. That's helped some, but I still slip. I haven't let go of the rope, but I'm doing better with GAL and PMA. No tears for the last 5 days! I've been enjoying my boys, having lunch with friend at work, joining the YMCA tomorrow, etc.

So, on to what happened last Friday morning. My H has a graduate degree, is a very successful professional, officer of his company, etc. He has always used alcohol to "let loose" and over the past few years (past year in particular) he has been drinking more and more heavily. He would usually drive home afterwards and even had to be driven home a couple of times because he was so wasted he could not stand up. It's a real hot button for me as I'm the daughter of a recovering alcoholic, but the more I tried to talk with him about it...guess what...the more he resented me. Last Thursday he was going a concert with four women from old job. How much more MLC can you get - married man, going out with four women - one of who was OW, even though he said he didn't know that until that night - yeah, right! Anyway, I decided to be a good DBer and not contact him on Thursday at all and to GAL. I went out that night with the boys and had a blast playing video games, had a fun dinner with them then went home and took something to help me go to sleep rather than worrying over him until he came home.

So, 3:30am rolls around and the phone rings. Guess where he is? Yep, at the police station arrested for DUI. I was very calm on the phone. On the way to the station, I thought alot about DB and how I could use it. I had been praying for God to convict him, but this was not exactly what I had imagined. I kept thinking that I know how humiliating this is for him and how disasterous this would be for him financially and professionally (two things VERY important to him) not to mention the shame he'd be going through as a father (example to his children). What I normally would have done would be to give him looks of anger/disappointment, given him "the business" about the consequences, complained, griped, etc. I might have even threatened to leave him there. So I decided to do a 180 and not say anything negative to him. I was very nice to him. We went home and I continued the same 180 the next morning. Turns out the OW was going to drive him home, but he had her turn around and take him back to his car b/c he didn't think it was a good idea to be alone in the car with her. He confessed this after first telling me something different. I continued to 180, thanked him for being honest and moved on. I did not ask questions, just listened. Normally I ask ALOT of questions and it drives him crazy. So, I just let him tell me the details in his time.

We spent the day together Friday and talked. He certainly noticed as he stopped me at one point, held me close, looked into my eyes and said "Thank you" for not laying into him, for not "interrogating him," for being with him all day Friday, etc. He says this was a huge wake up call for him not only about DUI, but alot of other things as well. He said it's really made him stop and "take inventory". Since Friday we have gotten along very well. I have continued to DB, not bring up R (except in MC), be very positive, validate, etc. He has not had anything to drink at all since. We were very affectionate, ML several times and yes, we did cuddle as well. I'm not sure if this is allowing cake eating, but I wanted it and enjoyed it.

This morning he did not take his suitcase as he normally would have. I'm not sure if he's decided he wants to stay home weekdays or what. I'm not afraid to ask, but really just want to see if he says anything. I believe I have reached a point where I would be ok and be able to continue to just DB if he does move out permanently, but would prefer for him to stay.

So, I'm not deluding myself into thinking that all is well or that his feelings about M have changed. I'm trying not to read anything into the situation (so hard). I'm also trying to figure out how to proceed given the recent events and his wake up call. I believe he has tickets to an event with OW and her aunt on Thursday (purchased a couple of weeks ago). Normally, I would confront him about it. But I am wondering if I should just wait and see if he comes clean, doesn't go or what. I think what he does Thursday will tell me alot about where his head is now "post-wakeup call." What do you think? Also, should I ask him where he's staying this week or just wait until he says something?

Financially, the Porsche is CERTAINLY out of the picture now and he has agreed to budgeting. If I see anything else alarming over the next 30 days, I'll separate finances.

So, Sandi - am I being a doormat here or is this ok? Should I have more firm boundaries around OW and when he is/isn't staying at home? Could he really be realizing what he was throwing away? I'm not going to bring up R and will continue to only contact him when he contacts me (which is alot lately). I'm continuing to work on my goals and need to set more since I've achieved several of the ones listed earlier. What else should I do?

Thanks for listening to my LOOOOOONNNNNGGGG post!

[sandi2]

Thanks for sharing all of that, Limbo. I think the experience shook him up pretty good, but as to it being "enough"......that is a wait and see thing. Right now, I think he may believe that he is going to get back on the straight and narrow, but after the "shake-up" wears off, I'm afraid he may start to slip.

As far as how you handled it........I think you deserve a gold crown! And, you see how doing completely opposite from what your normal reaction would have been worked for him. So, if I were you, I would start at this point and act as if everything is going to be fine. You put all your self improvements into over drive and act as if you are as happy as can be. Don't ask him what his plans are about staying or going. If he goes, then I would not say anything, but I may not act as if I'm quite as happy. My thinking is that he needs to see that you are disappointed, but not saying anything. Then he will know that he led you to think things would be different between the two of you and he is already going back to his old ways with OW. So, you know how a woman can show a little disappointment and still be sweet, don't you? You don't have to act like a b*tch in getting the message across to him that he's being a jerk and letting you down. He can tell by the hurt in your eyes. Being sweet (I'm not talking doormat stuff here) and yet not saying anything about him leaving will probably lay a huge guilt trip on him.....which it should!

Anyway, I would make coming home and being there with you the best time of his life. If he choses to keep those tickets and leave with the OW and her aunt, then we can think about what to do after that. Just don't blow your stack, talk about R, etc. If he goes with OW, it will give you time to think about how you want to handle it.

We will pray that he has had his eyes opened for good, but I just don't want you to get your hopes up too high. This was a shake-up, but not the kind that was heavy enough to really put an end to what is happening to him.

You take good care of yourself. That is so important.

Sandi

[In Limbo]

Sandi,

Thanks for posting back. I was about to give up on hearing from anyone. Maybe my posts are too long or too uninteresting?

I have continued to DB as best I know. I have not asked about OW and have not brought up the relationship. He left again today without his suitcase and I did not ask him anything. Things have cooled off a bit the past two days and I'm thinking his conscience is getting to him. My being so supportive and positive may make him feel guilty for wanting to leave? He is more withdrawn (more silence, less physical touch and no ILY's when he's leaving) and I'm waiting for something to drop, but trying not try to figure it out. I've been 100% supportive and positive and have not said anything negative to him at all. My only blunder I can think of is asking him if something was wrong when suddenly he became more withdrawn. He said no and I said ok and went on my way (kicking myself silently for blowing that one).

I've used a technique that I saw on someone else's post and that's to write down my questions, my comebacks and what I want to say to him but then hold on to it and not give it to him. It gives me some release and I've found if I can read over it a day later it is clear that it would not have been good to actually say those things.

He has told me that one of our problems was that he felt I supported him well during crisis times, but other times was not there for him emotionally and so he detached. So now he's using that as the reason for why things are going well. Any suggestions on how to show a 180 in this area, something unrelated to the crisis where I can be there for him in a way that would not be pursuing?

I'm trying hard to take care of myself. I'm still losing weight and eating better. Sleep has been difficult, as it is for so many going thru this. Been having more fun with the boys and such. Didn't get to the YMCA to join yesterday as planned, but will go this weekend and the rest of the week is busy with kid stuff.

I hope your health is improving and that you too take care of yourself.