Am I stupid or do we have a chance?

[optimist]

Hi Suebee,

Thanks for stopping by my post and for your comments. I am very sorry about your sitch. You must be in the middle of a frightful rollercoaster ride. Hang on tight, it does get a bit more bearable.

I found that reading a lot helped (I could not sleep anyway ). I liked "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass, "The Monogamy Myth" by Peggy something, and DR and DB by Michelle Weiner-Davis (especially DR).

And there are some interesting web sites around. Check out www.marriagebuilders.com if you have not done so.

and if you want to look into the other side, check out www.gloryb.com
I found it helped me to see things from the OW's perspective but it does not work for everyone.

Good luck and stop by whenever you want. We are here to help each other. You are not alone.

[optimist]

I had an idea and do not know whether it is a good one. On everybody's advice I have been a very, very good girl this week and we had had a rather good week. We went kayaking yesterday, and then to dinner and I only slipped a little when I asked him what he thought of our first 3 weeks together again. He said "OK" and I left it at that. This morning he was saying he'd come home early and we could go out to dinner and dancing. So far, good

I have been thinking about the OW. I do not think realistically that our marriage can heal while she is there because I feel permanently threatened. Before I knew she existed we had had good spells but they always went down the drains eventually (and now I know why). But I have been guilty of always telling him what I want and need and how he has to do things to achieve that.

My idea is to tell him that I need to talk with him and can he please pick a time and place. When and if he does (if he says no, I shut up and wait further, I guess), I will tell him that I cannot heal while she is there, that I understand it is difficult for him to get rid of her, and ask him lovingly how does he think we can get out of this mess.

What do you guys think?

[4btr]

Personally, I think it's a great idea, as long as it goes down the way you're describing it. You're telling him what you want and why, without threats and in a loving manner. You're also letting him choose the time and place for the discussion. One problem you identified with how these things went down before is that you always followed up with telling him what he had to do to to conform to what you wanted. There's nothing wrong with letting him know what you want from him.

One suggestion I'd have is that you change the script from "I cannot heal" to "our marriage cannot heal". You CAN heal, after all, even if your marriage fails. This is one of the points that, although you may not believe it right now, is really true. And when you really start believing it and acting like you've moved on, your H may take notice and start to realize what he'd be missing if you left.

Another suggestion is to not put too much pressure on the part about asking him how he thinks you two can get out of this mess. He may not have an answer, or he may not have one that you like. If he has an answer you don't like, will you be able to maintain your PMA during the talk?

Finally, set a time limit for the discussion and keep to it. My SBT MC called this "damage control", trying to avoid talks that go on without end, especially ones that have a tendency to get more negative the longer you engage in them.

[optimist]

Thanks for the answer dcr. Your suggestions are very good: I will take them into account. I still have not decided how or when to bring up the issue. And the time limit is a great idea.

I know I can heal on my own. And my H knows I can move on. With this soap opera of mine I have discovered quite a few things about myself, the most important being that I like who I am and I am much stronger than I ever imagined I could be.

Actually one of the major mental things I have now is to combat a sense of urgency. Sometimes, in fact quite often, I feel that if he is not going to drop the OW, the sooner he tells me the better. That way I do not have to waste time trying to fix an unfixable R.

Do not take me wrong: I do not want a D and I want to fix my M, not only for me and my H but for our daughter. But I cannot accept this OW in our life, even if there is no PR any more (and I believe him when he says that). I also resent his not getting rid of her, or curtailing the control she has over his office. If he loves me, as he says he does, why not do the only thing that is going to let us start to heal? I even resent his work, because she does his billing and controls the money. In my book, when he says he will be late he is working to pay her salary and her car lease, and stealing the time from my daughter and me. So far, I have managed not to tell him that but I have come pretty close.

I asked him that when we were going to MC (I stopped it because I saw no point in wasting any more money or time while he was not ready for a commitment) and he answered that he was afraid of losing everything. Which to me sounds as if he fears confronting her, firing her and then having our R go wrong and not have an exit strategy. Total commitment!

[optimist]

Quick reminder to myself: count your blessings. I did not bring up the R thing. Had a feeling that it just was not the right moment (or am I a wimp?).

It has been a good weekend so far. H has spent a lot of time with us, even called several times unprompted. Cooked breakfast for us both days. Good morning sex, the whole thing. Good so far, or not?

He did all the right things, then why am I not happier?

Part of the problem is that I trust him only as far as I can throw him (which is not much, he is way heavier than I can lift). And I resent all the 'have beens'. But perhaps this would happen even if he had totally stopped contact with the OW.

He is at work right now (or so he says) and a while ago he called to say 'stay home, it is raining' and later again to offer to go to Sam's Club and do our grocery shopping. Good steps, positive acts... I should be jumping up and down... why am I just so gloomy? I sometimes wonder... why do I even bother.

I am sorry guys, I am dumping all this down feeling on you all. I guess I'd better vent here and hope nobody minds rather than call my H up and make a huge 'where are you' scene that will not get me anywhere. It never ocurred to me that things could get better and then I'd be depressed. Does this happen often?

The bright point is that these are feelings, they will pass. Like the rain.

Thanks for listening.

[Dagny]

Optomist,

Finally stopping by your place! Keep venting here, that is what it is for.

AlmostGone gave me some insight this weekend that I had forgotten about. I was going on and on about how H said he tried and I thought that was crap. But, maybe in his own way he did try. It wasn't my way, I didn't think it was the right way, but he was trying and I didn't recognize or awknowledge that.

Are there any signs you can see where is trying to handle OW, getting her out of his life or influence? Possibly it isn't what you want or need, but some small things being done?

If you have the conversation you are talking about, can you get him to come up with solutions? Tell him what the problem is and ask how we can solve it and let him talk first. See what he can come up with, and even if it is different from what you want, really think about the things for a bit before you dismiss them or give your ideas.

Just some thoughts.

Jackie

[optimist]

Optomist,

Finally stopping by your place! Keep venting here, that is what it is for.

Thanks, Jackie, you are always welcome here. How was VA Beach this weekend? I will stop by yours later, when I have a bit more time.

AlmostGone gave me some insight this weekend that I had forgotten about. I was going on and on about how H said he tried and I thought that was crap. But, maybe in his own way he did try. It wasn't my way, I didn't think it was the right way, but he was trying and I didn't recognize or awknowledge that.

Are there any signs you can see where is trying to handle OW, getting her out of his life or influence? Possibly it isn't what you want or need, but some small things being done?

You are SO right. I do not know if he is doing something to get her out of our life because he does not mention her at all. I know nothing about what is going on in his office or whether he has even told her it is over. And that is part of the problem. I can deal with facts, even real bad ones: it is the unknown fears I handle poorly.

Two months ago, the last time I talked to her, she told me that he acted as if nothing had happened and had mentioned that we were getting divorced. The unspoken asumption was that he'd marry her once that happened. She also said that he had taken her to dinner and stayed at her home one evening watching TV (nothing physical). I asked him, nicely, and he denied. Unfortunately, based on past performance, I have to trust what she says more than what he says and she knew a whole lot about my past rantings and ravings. Since then I have not talked to her, except to say hi when I call him at the office. What is the point?

The saddest thing is that I had told him clearly that I would not oppose a D if that was what he wanted. And we had agreed on the terms of the D (I keep my stuff, he keeps his, we share legal custody of our daughter and I keep sole physical custody). Even proved I was serious: during the 6 months we were separated he saw our daughter with no restrictions. If he really wanted to marry the OW he could, in three or four months. He is the one that keeps begging me not to proceed, to hold off a bit longer.

Since he moved in with us Aug 17 he has definitely tried to improve our R, his way. He leaves his cell phone on most of the time so that I can call him when I want and calls me from work to say where he is going and what time he plans to be home. He spends much more time at home and has proposed things to do together (we took up kayaking, we went to dinner only us, that kind of thing). He even makes small casual gestures, like holding hands when we walk and reaching out to me in the sofa when we watch TV. And the physical aspect is great Nearly like 12 years ago.

But he does not talk about his feelings or our plans or that W. Actually one of the things he had complained about was that when I asked him if he was OK and he did not tell me I would not sit down with him and make him tell me. So I tried a couple of times, but he would get upset at me. I pointed nicely to him that he had asked me to ask but we did not get anywhere...

As I write I wonder, maybe I am being too impatient. I have been trying to get rid of her since 11/02 so it seems forever, but the actual affair only saw light 5/03: does that mean that I have to wait until Thanksgiving? I had given myself until Christmas, anyway

But on the other hand, in the last 5 years there were many times when things were 'better', when (I know now) they had broken up and he was happy with me. How can I trust that this is the 'once and forever'? As long as she is in the picture, I am threatened.

If you have the conversation you are talking about, can you get him to come up with solutions? Tell him what the problem is and ask how we can solve it and let him talk first. See what he can come up with, and even if it is different from what you want, really think about the things for a bit before you dismiss them or give your ideas.

I do not know whether to have it quite yet. I think you (and AlmostGone) are right, I may need to acknowledge his positive gestures first before getting into deeper waters. A bit of positive feedback before big talks. I need to be patient... I know that if I push too hard or too soon he will leave again. He nearly did last week... though he thought better about it at the last minute.

[optimist]

Journaling:

Yesterday it was a month since H came home. He is certainly making efforts: leaves his cell on all the time, calls me on his way to different work areas to tell me his plans, suggests fun activities to do together, and spends a lot of time with both of us. And I cannot complain about the physical aspect . I cannot say there is no improvement.

He has snapped at me a couple of times (good or bad?) but I just take it calmly (and come to the BB to vent). He has not been talking at all about R or what is going on in his office or with the OW. I asked a couple of times how he thought we were doing and he said 'fine' and left it at that. I did not push.

I have been working hard on myself, also. I have not made any pushes about the OW (mostly thanks to you guys), and do not snoop (much). If he comes home late I say hello with a big smile and try to act naturally. I watch TV with him into the wee hours (I hate TV), cook with him and have let him do a bunch of the day to day stuff that I used to do on my own.

I have an uncomfortable sensation of impending disaster, of walking on eggshells, but I try to go on with our life and enjoy the good days. I do not know if it is instinct or derrotism, but I do know that if I let my fear of losing him control me I am lost.

I have been very busy at work this week and have not had much time for him, but I tried to spend the little we had together. I am working this weekend also. We'll see.

Got to go to work. To be continued...

[Dagny]

To be continued...

Aren't we all just a work in progress?

I think it is great that you are seeing progress, but it concerns me that there seems to be a note of resentment in your post: Why am I the one doing everything? My fear is that this can build and creep into your actions or even your mental health. I know I got that way, I don't know if that is the cause of the general down fall with H, or if it was impending disaster either way.

But, what can you do, or have you done, that makes you feel good about all this? Is watching tv driving you nuts? Do you feel like you are doing too many of his activites and not enough of yours? Are you happy doing his activites--expanding your horizons, so to speak? Embrassing the differences and learning new things? I don't know, I don't think I ever made enough of an effort, I guess, to do those things. Just throwing out thoughts, hoping something is of use.

But, whatever you do, relish in the success, relish in the goals that you have met. Do goals need updated with him home? Great job on leaving the OW conversations out of the picture! That has to take restraint. He is working on this too, just in a different manner than you.

Jackie

[optimist]

... it concerns me that there seems to be a note of resentment in your post: Why am I the one doing everything? My fear is that this can build and creep into your actions or even your mental health.

I was not feeling particularly resentful when I wrote it, but I think you have a very valid point. There is quite a lot of anger boiling inside me, and it looks as if some of the vapors are seeping through. I am very, very angry at my H. I am angry at what he did, and at what he has not done. I resent the fact that he still has the OW working for him and it makes me furious that she is the one that controls the finances in his office and the office pays for the car she drives. To me it does not feel as if he is really trying when he has not started by stopping all contact with that woman.

What worries me is that if you can detect resentment in what I thought was a relatively cheerful and calm post, it must be seeping much more than I thought it was. And that is indeed a recipe for disaster. I have to do something about it!

The BB has helped me a lot, not only to vent what I feel before it spills over to him, but by allowing me to learn by where others are in this process. Obviously I have a ways to go

But, what can you do, or have you done, that makes you feel good about all this? Is watching tv driving you nuts? Do you feel like you are doing too many of his activites and not enough of yours? Are you happy doing his activites--expanding your horizons, so to speak? Embrassing the differences and learning new things?

Well I do like the things we do together, and enjoy all the new things we are learning. What kills me is when he is not there and I start to think...

He is working on this too, just in a different manner than you.

Thank you for pointing that out, Jackie. I do need a lot of reminding on that particular point. You are right, he is trying on his way. It does not have to be my way...