German wife still foggy

[bluerain]

You are the only one who can tell if thats too hard a line to take. DO NOT make any statements that you are not positive that you can stand by. That being said, I think that asking for transparency isn't too much of a demand.

What if she is being honest? What if that is all that happened, I'm just trying to play a tiny bit of devils advocate. Do you have proof? I would hate to see her tell the truth, and you just werent able to buy it. Its extremely difficult to prove that something didn't happen.

[PortlandDad]

What if she is being honest? What if that is all that happened, I'm just trying to play a tiny bit of devils advocate. Do you have proof? I would hate to see her tell the truth, and you just werent able to buy it. Its extremely difficult to prove that something didn't happen.

That's a good point BR. I have thought about that a lot, too. To be completely honest, I'm not as caught up in the sex or the physical side of the affair. I'm not really even that fazed by the emotional side, though that does irk me more than the physical does. My biggest hang-up has always been the lying about it all. I've caught her red-handed lying to me about the OM before, so I find that it is so difficult to believe ANYTHING she tells me.

I will definitely give her the benefit of the doubt, but it is difficult especially when she ...

• ... shows absolutely no remorse over her bad choices.
• ... still does not say 'I love you' to me.
• ... aside from getting herself ready to return to the US, shows no sign or desire that she wants to reconcile.

I really do want to move forward with her and put all this stuff behind us, but if I thought that she was being less-then-candid with me about anything it will make that so much harder for me.

[Thinker]

A suggestion regarding transparency.

I think it is absolutely necessary, but I also understand the WAS's point of view, in that once the A is over, they don't want to feel like they are living under a microscope with someone else reading all of their mails.

My W and I signed a contract in which she agreed to hand over the passwords to all over her email accounts, facebook, online cell phone records, etc etc, and also agreed not to change those passwords. I in turned agreed not to read her mail, etc unless I had reason to believe something was going on (kind of like probable cause).

So far it has been working pretty well, although I still have trouble trusting that nothing is going on (and indeed something may be). As bluerain said - it is very hard to prove that nothing is going on. I always still have my fears and doubts - she could have opened another mail account and just not told me, she could be emailing him and just immediately deleting the mails from her sent items. She could be very carefully catching all mails from him and deleting them and I would just never know....

It's a fine line between transparency and paranoia - believe me, I have been trying to walk it. You have to decide how much you need, and how much you are just willing to trust, where some minimal level of trust without proof is always going to be necessary.

[PortlandDad]

Its a good point about transparency, Thinker. I don't want to punish my W for her A. In fact, more than anything I want this to be a learning experience for both of us. I don't want to invade her privacy, nor do I want her to feel like that she struck out so badly that she doesn't deserve my love and trust again. I don't want the passwords to her accounts, her check register, or anything else that the book says that I have claim to. All I really, really want, nay, need, is honesty from her. If she can tell me the truth about what she's done, or not done, and why she did what she did, I can live with whatever comes next.

If she can't be honest and truthful with me, or if she tells me something that I find out later wasn't the truth, I just don't think I can accept her back, nor accept her pledge to work on our M. In a way I feel like that may be stretching what would reasonably be expected from her to come back.

[jaguilar]

So let's say she can't be honest. You tell her you can't do this anymore, how do you handle the kids. Are they expecting you guys to reconcile?

[SmileysPerson]

To be completely honest, I'm not as caught up in the sex or the physical side of the affair. I'm not really even that fazed by the emotional side, though that does irk me more than the physical does. My biggest hang-up has always been the lying about it all. I've caught her red-handed lying to me about the OM before, so I find that it is so difficult to believe ANYTHING she tells me.

I completely understand that.

WAW has been lying from the word get-go. I know it because I'm breaking one of the rules -- I'm spying. (Hey, it's what spies do.) She inadvertently told a neighbor whose kid goes to school with our kid about the divorce yesterday. Today on the mobile she asks "if you've told anyone in our circle of friends?" No -- have you? "Oh, no, of course not."

Now while she's saying that I'm reading an e-mail to the neighbor: Please don't tell SP that I told you. Neighbor, of course, reported back in e-mail that she's told her H and another mom from MY kid's class. Which is a recipe for disaster, because we were not planning on dropping bomb on kids until AFTER school -- still 7 weeks away.

So later I told WAW I ran into neighbor and neighbor gave me a weird look -- has she said anything to neighbor?

"No, of course not, that would be disastrous. But again, you accuse me of lying!"

Yeah, weird how that works out. Turns out she's lied about things big and small. Do you have a gender preference in MC's? "No, whatever." E-mail to divorce attorney friend: "Can you recommend an MC? I prefer a woman." When did this 'light' and 'no big deal' thing with Signore Schmuckatelli begin? "Not until after D-day." E-mail to Enabling Girlfriend dated 8 weeks before D-day: "Signore Schmuckatelli e-mailed me, and I felt like a teenager again!"

So I get that about the lying. Doesn't change how I feel about her. Changes what I believe about her. Not sure yet which is worse.

[Thinker]

All I really, really want, nay, need, is honesty from her.

The point of the transparency is to enforce the honesty and to allow you to believe when she is being honest.

As SP said, We have all learned (the painful lesson) that our WAW's are very accomplished liars when it comes to OM. This completely destroys the trust that was there before, so that afterwards, it is very hard to believe her even when she is being honest.

You are both going to have to understand that. You are going to have to request the transparency - it is much harder to request later, and believe me you are going to want it. She is going to have to respect that need. At the same time, once you have it, you are going to have to restrain yourself from using it (unless you have good cause). Otherwise, it can easily become an addictive, destructive and controlling habit on your part.

[jaguilar]

We've all prayed for the day that our W's or H's would come back I guess sometimes we don't think of how we want them to be when/if they do come back.

[PortlandDad]

he point of the transparency is to enforce the honesty and to allow you to believe when she is being honest.

As SP said, We have all learned (the painful lesson) that our WAW's are very accomplished liars when it comes to OM. This completely destroys the trust that was there before, so that afterwards, it is very hard to believe her even when she is being honest.

That's a good point. I do want to trust her, but I don't want to be naive about it. Really I just want the truth. If she tells the truth, I will know I can trust her and will reciprocate.

We've all prayed for the day that our W's or H's would come back I guess sometimes we don't think of how we want them to be when/if they do come back.

Back when she first walked out this was certainly the case. Right now, I think about this a lot. I don't want the same woman that walked out on our family back: but I will gladly take my wife back. If she hasn't learned from this experience, and wants to be together with me to build a new marriage (not restore the old one) then she can just stay where she is.

[bluerain]

Its interesting to see how after the affair, or whatever, you start to see the old person, the one you knew, peeking out again.

When I first made the decision to stand for my M, I remember thinking that I dont want transparency, you either trust or you dont. The idea of going through his bills, etc. made me sick. Now, Im not sure that I could do it without at least permission to check, if I felt like I really needed it. I also have thought about a joint Myspace page, or Facebook, we are military, so the network is really important to keep in touch with people. I still dont like the idea of needing transparency, but I also dont like the idea of him having sex with a 22 year old bar fly either!

I think that it can be useful, but I also agree that it can be a dangerous thing. Trust but verify, right?