Karen, of course I understand that Puppy doesn't want to be married to her anymore....purely justified! No argument there from me! I was just responding to those who are making cracks at Mrs. Puppy's expense with regard to her notions of still being a "family" in the future, and knowing that I had such notions myself when I walked away. I'm just trying to promote compassion in general.
That sounds like the type of "Leave it to Beaver" stuff my wife comes up with. I don't know how they think everything can be "normal", but we just won't be husband and wife... I'm not a lot of help, but commiserate with your sitch... "We are still a family, just one that doesn't live together anymore." Hmm, what then IS a family?
-AlexEN
Alex,
Well, to me, we WOULD still be a family -- just a broken one. And I think it's in my kids' best interests to keep up as many family traditions, customs, mores, and structures as I can (so long as they don't violate my own boundaries of personal integrity) -- isn't it?
It seems to me like my wife is going to get PLENTY of opportunities at doses of reality here -- legally, financially, logistically, emotionally and every other way. If doing what's in my kids' best interests makes things slightly more comfortable for her, is it a given then that I shouldn't do it?
First of all, DQ I was not in any way trying to bash Mrs. Puppy not by any stretch of the imagination (my thoughts more aligned with Karen's on this topic). My wife shares many characteristics with Mrs. P, not the least of which are some narcissitic tendencies and the inability to be empathetic.
That being said, I still love my wife (sometimes for reasons that still escape me) and OUR children. Intellectually, I think I should be much angrier with her than I am. But, it is precisely the compassion of which you (DQ) spoke that keeps me from going there. I DO feel badly for her because I think she does need help (just as I think, whether it's my place to say so or not, that Mrs. Puppy does) or I believe she will eventually become estranged from her children, too (just as she has, emotionally, from her mother, and as she is choosing to do with respect to our relationship) if she does not. My comments were really meant to echo Puppy's sentiment:
Quote:
"It's the typical wayward script of "normalization" and everything's going to be OK"
I see the same thing with my W. And I do NOT think everything is going to be normal, especially for the kids, who ARE my focus, too.
Puppy, I couldn't agree with what you say more:
Quote:
Well, to me, we WOULD still be a family -- just a broken one. And I think it's in my kids' best interests to keep up as many family traditions, customs, mores, and structures as I can (so long as they don't violate my own boundaries of personal integrity) -- isn't it?
... If doing what's in my kids' best interests makes things slightly more comfortable for her, is it a given then that I shouldn't do it? Methinks not.
Perhaps in my haste to get my son to his guitar lesson, my brevity led to interpretations different than what I intended. I LOVE family traditions and think we should do whatever we can to uphold them. Puppy, I think you and I exchanged e-mails on this before. The holidays were among the hardest times for me, knowing that W wants a D made many of those family traditions seem surreal and unnatural. My visions of Christmas future haunted me because I don't think those traditions CAN ever truly be the same or have the same meaning for ANY of us. I remember looking at the Christams ornaments as we took them down and thinking my children deserve to have these ornaments be with each other on one tree, not split up with some on Mommy's tree and some on Daddy's tree.
Maybe I'm parsing too finely, but that is what I mean when I say the traditions, as important and sentimental and central in meaning to our intact family as they are, will be forever changed. That's not to say that new, meaningful traditions cannot be built, but that the old traditions, customs, and mores will never quite be the same.
So, yes, while I do think "it's in my kids' best interests to keep up as many family traditions, customs, mores, and structures as I can (so long as they don't violate my own boundaries of personal integrity)", I don't know that I believe that is an achievable end in a "broken" family.
Puppy, I believe what others have written about you finding a woman (or that she will find you) who will meet your emotional needs and with whom you will have a wonderful, fulfilling relationship. When that happens, or when a hopefully healthy Mrs. P is in new relationship, do you think your new significant others will embrace your "broken" family's traditions? Perhaps that can happen; but, I have a tough time seeing it. There will be melded and new traditions, but I (and maybe it is splitting hairs) think the old traditions (in their totality) will forever be lost except in our memories. As a sentimental guy, that saddens me.
This is all a long way of saying, I agree that a "broken" family is still a family, but that that family, especially from the childrens' perspective, will never be normal.
If I was "picking on" Mrs. P, it was only to the extent I agree with the premise that her e-mail line that I cited evidences to me the wayward script of normalization...
-AlexEN
Last edited by AlexEN; 04/15/0902:52 AM.
New: What a Weekend
H-48 WAW-49 M-22 S-14,9 D-11 EA disc.-11/07 PA disc.-3/08 EA2?-6/08 to ?
I've haven't always agreed with you, but I've always read your posts with a lot, lot of interest. And you have been one of the more generous posters on this board in offering your help to others. If anyone has a stack of positive karma in their corner, it is definitely you.
I am really, really sorry that you are at this point, but you seem pretty clear-headed in what direction you should take. I'm not worried about you, but I do care. I hope you accept this hug, cause hugs are always a good thing. (((Puppy)))
I don't know what it means to be with someone for 20 years (you should be proud of that), but I have made a study of love and sex the past year, in trying to understand my own situation and why? why? why? does love seem to go sour after a certain time.
Yep, we all have different backgrounds, different capacities for love, different psychological...difficulties. Truly, I think the people on this board are some of the most psychologically healthy people in the world, and they were attracted to and loved some of the least. Makes sense, right?
We are looking for those that are different than we are, to have children that have the most chance for survival because they have something that we lack (a touch of insanity, perhaps ;)). But biochemistry doesn't serve our emotion need for family and bond, and so I'm posting this link for you, maybe it'll help in your next relationship? I'm also posting it on your thread because you have so many friends here that it might help one of them. All I know is that it's helped me come to terms with why love dies, and what you can do to keep it from dying (and yes, it is through sex. ;))
I don't have much to add to what others have already said. I will suggest that you be careful about being the one to move out of the home. I did that for pretty much the same reasons you have given, and I now regret it. Be careful if you think any magnanimous gesture on your part is going to win you any brownie points with your WAW -- it won't. They will find some way to use it against you if they can, or belittle it if they cannot.
And the kids seem to be too broken up over the S or D of their parents right now to even be worried about who moved out first.
I had the best of intentions when I volunteered to move out of our home (my now xW had even signed the lease to her intended apartment already before I went to her and offered to be the one to move out instead.) But in the end it did neither me or my sons any real good.
And xW has even taken the opportunity to rub that in my face, adding insult to injury.
I also want to say how sad I am that your M has come to this. There are few people I know who fight so hard for marriage and thus deserve to have total success in saving their own.
Puppy - I was sorry to read your news. You may find this time round that detaching is a little easier, in that you have all the neccessary tools within you.
You understand and believe you are worthy of more.
I feel for Mrs puppy as well as your children, as there are no winners.
Just a quick note regarding personal challenges both mentally and physically. Once we are adults, we are all capable of seeking the help we need. You cannot allow them to use that as an excuse. Show pity and you enable the behaviour to continue and that is not fair to them.
FWIW Pup I wasn't intentionally bashing Mrs. Puppy.
I echo Pollyanna's sentiments above, there just are not any winners in this scenario. I know that whatever you do, you will do it with the strength and dignity that you have shown throughout your situation. You will always keep what is best for your kids in the forefront of your mind and actions and in the end will know that you did the right thing for them.
The love and prayers still stand...always. S&S
M:39 H:39 K:S14;D8 T:22yr M:15yrs S:12/28/07 EA/PA 3/14/08 OW preg 11/17/08 born 12/12/08 his ~~~~~~~ Never allow someone to be your priority while allowing yourself to be their option
I read your post just about the minute you posted it, but wanted to really think about what you said before posting to you.
Based upon the fact she took off her rings, wants you to be "ok" with her dating again, and is hiding things, I'd bet money she is with a new OM. I think you know this. You said how she wants to be chased and wooed, and that is what OM will do. She's really addicted. It is a great drug for your self esteem, especially if she is in some sort of MLC. This is why she isn't trying, and if she went to REtrouvaille at the same time she was communicating with another man, then that weekend was worthless. She could have been going to make you feel better about divorcing. Like you said, she wants your "blessing". She knows it is wrong, she knows she hasn't done what she should, and so if she can get you "ok" with it, she can do it. I remember trying to get my H to the place of acceptance, too. It makes us feel less guilty. "It's not just me, we BOTH realize we need to end the marriage. We both just need to cut our losses and try again. It's BOTH of our faults."
I don't know your wife, but if she has NPD or even if she just has the addiction of affairs, she is only thinking about the feelings she gets with another person. Her goal is to get that feeling. She wants it with the least resistance. She knows if she can get you to a place of agreement, then she won't lose as much. And, she has talked herself into believing that she can't possibly love you since she doesn't have these kind of feelings for you like she does with these OM.
Ok, all that being said, you are in a place of surrender. You're tired. You're unhappy. Understandably so. I keep remembering how she said, "How can you let me go if you love me so much?" and how you said, "How can you not have sex with me if you love me?" This is really a summary of what is happening. She needs that chase/wooing/unconditional passion and you need to have that same thing. It's like a standoff. One can't happen without the other. Counseling could still help that. I'm guessing she refused. I remember the OM telling me how if HE was my H he would fight for me until the end. If HE was my husband he would NEVER let something so precious go. These were the things being put into my head during it all. If it weren't for DB that's all I would have been hearing.
YOu deserve more....certainly. You both do. You both deserve to have a happy marriage. You are right that GOd is with you. He always is. Pray, Pup. Pray like you have never prayed before. ((((Puppy))))) I'm always here for you if you want to pick her brain by talking to me.
