Hi Pup, I can't add anything that hasn't already been said. Page 5 already, that sums up how people feel about you. How much they care and how much we want you to be loved and happy. I am sure that this will happen in time. ((((())))))
I get it about her parents (and hadn't thought of it that way - thanks), but how is it bad for me and my kids for them to keep as much of their current routine as possible? (like me coming to their house to make them dinner a few nights a week).
TRUST me, the selfish, vindictive part of me would love NOTHING MORE than to see my wife struggle with trying to juggle everything that I currently do, and for her to be as "alone" as possible -- hopefully that will help her to grow up emotionally, and become more empathetic, if that's even still possible. But I'm not going to put the boys' needs second in order to do that. Is it just that I'd be visiting in HER personal space?
I thought it might be helpful for me to post my wife's e-mail to me, in which she describes her (warped) vision of how this is going to be. It's the typical wayward script of "normalization" and everything's going to be OK:
But first, my letter to her:
(Mrs. Puppy),
Thanks for coming outside last nite and talking with me. It wasn't exactly the lighthearted banter-over-a-glass-of-wine that I was looking for, but it's probably good we did it. You've done a good job expressing your needs and desires to me, and I do hear you (even when I don't agree).
I wanted to summarize my position, thoughts and feelings at this point, now that I've had a chance to collect them, as I've probably been somewhat less-than-coherent the past two days as I've been pretty upset.
As much as it saddens me and disappoints me, I do think we need to do SOMETHING here, and I will not contest you if you want a divorce, so long as it involves some sort of "50/50" custody of the boys (with your home being their primary residence). I also think it would be best for them to remain in that house as long as we own it, to ease their transition to this new life and to keep things as familiar as possible.
I also am no longer opposed to the separation that you've suggested so many times before, if you feel that might further ease the transition. However, I still believe strongly in the original three conditions that I expressed earlier:
1. We tell the boys honestly what's going on -- they deserve to be talked to.
2. You and I agree to a fairly detailed financial arrangement, so that it's clear what's expected of each other.
3. We continue to honor our marriage vows as long as we're still married, and don't date other people until we're divorced.
, and i understand that you don't feel you can agree to #3, and to be honest, based on what I'm seeing and hearing, I don't see either one of us wavering on that one, so it would appear we're at some sort of impasse. I just don't think it's right for people to go on dates while they're still married, and I'm concerned about how it would affect me and the boys if that were to happen. People talk; I learned that the hard way the last time. How would (S16) feel if one of his friends at school says that he heard his parents talking, and they saw your mom with another guy having a cup of coffee at Starbucks last week? Or if someone says to (S12), "My dad says your mom has a boyfriend; is that true??" Kids can be cruel (and so can adults for that matter), and I want to protect the boys from them as much as we possibly can.
I am in no particular hurry here to date, but if you feel you cannot wait, than we should probably go the D route and not the S route. If we file it in XXXXX County, and it's uncontested, it should only take a month or two; surely we can keep our vows that long?
I feel like (and this is just how I'm feeling) what you are asking for is not so much a divorce (you've said this isn't even necessarily what you want), or even a separation in the normal sense of the word (two married people physically separating, and deciding to live on their own without each other's emotional and physical support and the inevitable financial sacrifices that come with trying to maintain two homes), so much as it feels like you're wanting my permission, or blessing, for you to DATE -- some sort of "open marriage" -- while we figure out our best path. As you know, I cannot live with that. That may not be what you're intending to convey, but that's just how it's coming across to me.
At the end of the day, (wife), you're an adult and I can't control you or your decisions, and I may not even be able to influence them with my own concerns, now that we've made what would appear to be a mutual decision to end our marriage. So you certainly don't need my "blessing" ANYWAY -- you're an adult and you certainly have your own free will. But I would hope you would agree that after all we've been thru, an extra 60 days to handle this the most appropriate way would be in EVERYBODY'S best interest.
Again, thank you for being honest with me -- hopefully you appreciate me being the same.
Puppy
Her response:
Puppy,
Well, I'm glad we had some uninterrupted time to talk even though it was'nt the lighthearted conversation you wanted. It is difficult to talk in front of the boys so I guess it was a good opportunity.
I feel you might be misinterpreting me when I said that I couldn't live with #3. What I meant by that is not so much the "dating" part, but the need to get on with my life. I hear the clock ticking and I just feel that if we decide to separate with the sole purpose of eventually divorcing then I don't really understand why the dating part would bother you. I understand that if things got back to the boys that it could be very hurtful. For that reason I had said that there would be things that shouldn't be done in front of them. But I guess it doesn't matter anyway since we will obviously never agree on that one.
I will agree to the 50/50 for the boys with them living with me as their primary residence. I agree that they should remain in the house that they currently call home. As I said before we BOTH bring to them different things, and it is very important that we get to bring this to them on an equal basis.
As much as I felt that the separation would be better at first, I feel a little differently now that I've had time to think about it. No matter which way we go, we will still be living apart and the boys are still going to have to try to adjust to that. I think the MORE important thing is that we continue to be on the same page as far as their care and emotional health goes. By that I mean, that we need to both physically and emotionally be there for them a lot in the beginning. I would like to propose that for the first 6 months to a year, we try to keep a lot of things the same for them. Maybe you could continue to take (S12) to school even on days you don't have him. This might help to keep a certain consistency for him. And it would allow him to see you on those days when he might not. Being that I have to work nights, on days when they are with me, if you could come and have dinner with them I think that would help to keep a sense of normalcy and supervision. We have always worked as a team and we need to continue to do that. We would need to talk about holidays and vacations. I know we can come to an agreement on what is best for them. I would also like to propose that maybe after the first year, that in order to be able to see both of them, we split like they will spend half the day with you and half with me, this way they won't have a full holiday without the other parent. We could even spend them together for a time that works for us.
We do need to talk to them. But I want for us to first talk about how we are goi ng to approach this. Should we have all 4 there at the same time? Should we meet with (MC) before we talk to them? No matter what, we need to make them feel that we are NOT deserting them. That we are still a family, just one that doesn't live all together anymore,.
Pup - not sure if you issued this as a challenge for answers...
but FWIW - I moved out cos under the circumstances that was the best for S7 - to keep him in the home in which he was brought up in and in which he felt secure...
In a time of turmoil...I thought that it was best to go and leave him there with his Mum rather than put him through any more drama ...drama which was not of his making...
At that point all my ego and pride was defeated / deflated...but also - after a bit - I realised it was by far the best and the most honourable decision I could have made... Puppy - the most important people in your current situation are your boys...
Do what is the best thing for them...
When I get low...I remember the post on the front of this Board...thing is - you can always have sex again...those boys can never get another shot at being kids!
That sounds like the type of "Leave it to Beaver" stuff my wife comes up with. I don't know how they think everything can be "normal", but we just won't be husband and wife... I'm not a lot of help, but commiserate with your sitch... "We are still a family, just one that doesn't live together anymore." Hmm, what then IS a family?
-AlexEN
New: What a Weekend
H-48 WAW-49 M-22 S-14,9 D-11 EA disc.-11/07 PA disc.-3/08 EA2?-6/08 to ?
... "We are still a family, just one that doesn't live together anymore." Hmm, what then IS a family?
Is that kinda like, "I'm not a doctor but I play on on TV?"
Sorry, she just frustrates me for you. Ultimately you know what is right for your kids and your sitch, I just think the faster reality sets in for her the better off you will all be. If you continue on in the "family" sense and then later stop it because you are D or it doesn't work for you, its really just prolonging the inevitable for the kids. JMO
M:39 H:39 K:S14;D8 T:22yr M:15yrs S:12/28/07 EA/PA 3/14/08 OW preg 11/17/08 born 12/12/08 his ~~~~~~~ Never allow someone to be your priority while allowing yourself to be their option
I just have to chime in here...I'm so sorry but I just can't see the point of bashing Mrs. Puppy. I mean, yes I don't agree with what she is walking away from...but can't we all just be kind to the extent that we can realize that she may be suffering from some kind of mental illness? If she does have a Narcissistic personality disorder, this is not just some puffed up way of saying she is conceded. It is a very dangerous and real disorder, and I feel bad for Puppy, his kids, AND for Mrs. Puppy. No one wishes for themselves to be mentally unstable. No one wishes for themselves to be put in this position.
When I got separated, I did think that my ex-h and I could somehow be friends and work through the family issues with the kids, holidays, etc. It did not in ANY WAY seem to me to be a "crazy" notion that he and I would not be able to do this. We had, in fact, a blended family already, and I had coached and counseled him through all the b.s. with his insane ex-wife we had to go through, and custody issues with my step-daugther, and then horrible insane sad things with the step-daugther, and all fo this while trying to be a normal, happy family. I had been the one who had a blended family while growing up, my ex-h had not. So I was apparently the expert on how to get along in the divorced environment. My own parents had been married and divorce from each other twice, then both went on to marry other people and each divorced those new people. So my life has been literally filled with divorce and I had a child-of-divorce perspective on ALL of it, every step of the way.
Therefore when I was married and we had our own blended family, complete with insane ex-wife, I was the compass or guidance they all needed to really try to get things going along as well as possible.
However....once I left my marriage (regardless of the fact that I was trying to get him to work it out with me still), he left the family/father relationship. He stayed in the house with my son (step-daughter was already in college) but he literally abandoned him emotionally and physically, which left it up to me to do double time while not even living there.
So why am I telling you all of this?
Because there are always two sides, and two hurting people, plus however many children are involved. And all people involved deserve love and kindness for what they are going through. Had my ex-h come here and found this board during our separation, I know "his" story would have made me seem like a cold and heartless WAW. From his perspective, that was true. From my perspective, I was reeling from the new information that he had literally abandoned our son. At that time, if anyone had suggested that I had "run out on my responsibilities as a parent" I would have spit in their face. People really have no clue what has "really" happened in a marriage.
Anyway, we all support Puppy here and Mrs. Puppy is not here...but seriously, no matter how badly Mrs. Puppy might be messing up her life, she is still Mr. Puppy's children's mother, and always will be. She may have fantasitcal notions about "family" time in the future...but guess what? When I was a child, I wished for nothing more than for my divorced parents to be nice to each other in my presence. And I feared nothing less than being grown up and finally having a wedding and having it be ruined by my parents because they STILL could not be grown up enough to be in the same room together....which DID actually come to pass, too.
I know we're all hurting for our own reasons....but Mrs. Puppy isn't a demon out to hurt Puppy. She is just the wrong wife for him, and that is all. Everything else she has ever done and contributed to the marriage, the family, and the children, isn't wiped out just because she wants to leave the marriage.
Sorry for the rant...I just think more compassion is needed sometimes...
Your post made me think of my wife and the need for me to push aside my own pain & still be compassionate towards her which I have lost sight of recently.
Sorry Pup for what you are going to deal with over the next days, weeks & months but keep your faith in yourself, your kids & God and you will get though it.
Me/W 39/37 T/M 9/6 S 4, D 2 Bomb 7/17/08 OM confirmed 7/23/08 D Filed 7/25/08 D served 9/17/08
I just have to chime in here...I'm so sorry but I just can't see the point of bashing Mrs. Puppy. I mean, yes I don't agree with what she is walking away from...but can't we all just be kind to the extent that we can realize that she may be suffering from some kind of mental illness? If she does have a Narcissistic personality disorder, this is not just some puffed up way of saying she is conceded. It is a very dangerous and real disorder, and I feel bad for Puppy, his kids, AND for Mrs. Puppy. No one wishes for themselves to be mentally unstable. No one wishes for themselves to be put in this position.
DQ
I don't think anyone here has bashed Mrs. Puppy. I have empathy for those with a mental disorder, I went through depression for a year or maybe 2. But at some point, I got treatment and medication and have really worked on that.
You can call it whatever you'd like, but a spouse that can't even give you a hug when you are going through serious pain? That is cold, and I don't think most of us would want to be married to someone like that. Karen
