Here Again

[xalelle]

Hello all,

it is with a heavy heart I am here again - my return after almost 5 years. Having been through separation and recovery then, with the recovery being in great part to this board and the knowledge and support I received here, this is the first place I thought to turn as things seem to be badly off track again.

My old sitch is deep in the archives, hard to pull it all out, but long story short me 42 W36 D12 S15. Married almost 16 years. 5 years ago wife asked for sep, I had most likely been significant cause of WAW due to lack of attention, over-emphasizing work, withdrawn, uncommitted. Bomb dropped and few days later realized I was about to loose my W and M, and realized that was NOT at all what I wanted. Did all the wrong things, found DB after a few weeks, learned, struggled, tried through a very rough 4 month sep. In the end we came back together, happier then ever, went through a few personal challenges, seemed to survive, both of us very happy for the most part.

Fast Forward 5 years, A week ago noted W being more distant than normal, not open to attention/affection, rubbing me wrong way. After a week of this and comment made (essentially we cant have fun together) I had to confront her. Of course, I did all the wrong things - immediately fear and pain of previous sitch made me say stupid things, worst of which was, very angrily, "if you don't want to be with me get out of my house". Honestly this was my inner self-preservation instinct saying I cant go through this again, I would rather make a clean break and get over the pain. Of course I don't want her to leave, and almost immediately regretted saying that.
I asked her what was wrong, she gave me lots of the same old things.. "I love you very much, but its not the same (ILYBNILWY)", "Its like we are just friends" "I want the man I fell in love with", "Maby we just need some time apart to find each other again". Luckily for me, they brought to my mind DB, and made me think hard - and realize that I have strayed from my plan of lifelong DB, putting W and M and my behavior ahead of other less important day to day problems.

There is one personal issue that she raised as a primary reason, I dont feel it is time to go into the details on it, but it is one thing we have never been able to see eye to eye on. I asked her point blank if that one thing would mean she could not be with me, and her only answer was "I don't know".

Now some of the hard things - as always, hindsight is 20/20, I now see the signs all over the place. W making comments about us drifting apart, her spending lots of time with some new friends, many nights we spent separately doing our own things. I can also look at myself and absolutely see where I have fallen off the DB wagon, fallen hard and far.

I am terrified. Though the years have passed the pain of our previous sitch still remains in my heart. To this day I have recurring nightmares of W leaving me, from which I wake completely out of breath and feeling like dying. Lots of W's attitude is very seperated, dosnt really seem to want to discuss (remember lesson one, no R talk!). W caught me crying and said "dont cry, I cant handle that right now" (lesson 2, PMA, and lesson 3 show strength not weakness - noone wants a whining fool). Already my first day at work after the semi-bomb, and I cannot concentrate. Terrified about how tonight will go - it could go well, could go bad. W may be distant, may want to go out with friends - my instincts are going to be to cling and really make her mad.

Terrified because I know all about WAWs - anything we do instantly to try to be better is taken with "why now, why only when I am past my last straw do you care", and of course all I want to do is work on being better.

SO, how do I fight the terror, try to get on track. I think I will start with 3 lists: What not to do, What to do, and Positives (lesson 4, focus on the positives)

What not to do:
- Beg & Whine
- Initiate R talk
- get defensive if W initiates R talk
- too much too soon (dont send W 2 dozen roses with uber mushy love note)

What to do:
- Take care of myself
- Make sure changes are about me, not R
- Pay attention to W
- Listen if she talks
- If appropriate, be affectionate
- Don't be afraid to be affectionate
- Don't crowd W
- If W distant, spend time with D&S
- Dont allow myself to "react". Think everything through.

Positives:
- W and I still under same roof
- W still showing some affection
- W still using pet terms "baby, hon"
- W not shying away from me being close
- No more talk of Sep since bomb day
- W brought up possible upcoming date opportunity post bomb
- I have been here before and know about DB.

The last positive is tough - because I know if I had just seen the signs sooner, I could have averted disaster, and I know that it is very likely further along than I want to think. However, last time by the time I found DB we were sep, things were very bad, D had been discussed many times, and I had made lots of mistakes. My greatest reason for hope is that I know that a relationship can be far over the brink and still return, and this time I am armed with DB and the skills I built before at the beginning. I must remind myself every moment, this is for the long haul, it is not a sprint. Remind myself of my own mantra, developed when I learned to DB the first time: Love, confidence, trust, and patience.

[antlers]

Sounds like you already have experience and information...good for you! I wish I knew 4 months ago what I know now. You know what you need to do. Most of us here are still learning. Sorry you're back! "Love, confidence, trust, and patience". I like it. Best of luck to you. Best of luck to us all. And may we all be strong enough, and committed enough, to do the things we need to do to become better people, better parents, and better spouses.

[xalelle]

Good things I did today:
Reminded W I needed the info on the possible date thing so I could make reservations. When I realized it was at a time that she has said she may spend a few days away with GF (I know this for sure, actually long time possible plan that I suggested so nothing scary there) I was tempted to ask her if she was sure she would be here. Didn't do that! Would have just opened the door for the wrong discussion. Made the reservation. Will mention it in a few days, not to be pushy.

Called just to say hi (cause she says she likes that) got her vm. Resisted the urge to text "you not talking to me?". Just followed the as-if rule.

She im'd me with minor complaint, not replying to my replies.. again resisting pushing. if she wants to talk to me I am here, and she knows it.

I am going to surprise her by coming home at a decent hour. I realize I may just get slapped with her going out with a friend or not wanting to be close, so I am going to not push, not say I came home for any particular reason like working on R or being with her, just that I was able to. To resist temptation leaving all work at work. Maby it will be a good surprise, maby not. either way I should get home sooner anyway.

So much of this should have been second nature. Why did I need yet another brick dropped on my head to remember how much my W means to me and why I should pay attention to her! ugh.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

X,

Is there someone else? There almost always is, and she's certainly displaying all the classic signs.

You sound like a bit of a "pleaser" and a "Nice Guy," who's putting the entire burden of the marriage on himself. I know, cuz I'm one too!

Puppy

[xalelle]

X,

Is there someone else? There almost always is, and she's certainly displaying all the classic signs.

You sound like a bit of a "pleaser" and a "Nice Guy," who's putting the entire burden of the marriage on himself. I know, cuz I'm one too!

Puppy

Of course that was one of my first fears, having been around here long enough to be aware of how things go. But yes, I am sure there is no other. I have no doubt there may have been thoughts of others, but it didn't get to that point.

Re: pleaser and nice guy - I can be, and should be in some cases. I don't take full responsibility for our issues, but certainly take responsibility for my part in them, which is the only thing that I can change!

Last night we had a tremendous breakthrough, to the point that I think we both very happily recommitted to our M. Gorey details aside, we spent most of the night talking and ML :). For the first time in a long time I saw the W that I fell in love with, and a lot of it was the reflection of her seeing the me that she fell in love with.

Of course, today has been a little tough - our morning was very happy, lots of shared smiles and physical contact, though we were both exhausted. However, old fears die hard, and knowing that we have only taken the first baby step towards renewing our M I of course am very cautious, remember, I have been here before!

So it was hard for me when I did call her today to hear her not really wanting to talk - but she is very tired, and was very busy with household things. I will keep up my PMA, and return home ready to be with her and my family, practicing "As If" things are still progressing well, keeping all of my DB knowledge at hand. Of course it makes me itchy to return home (not that I wasnt already, for positive reasons, but now there is a bit of a nagging fear. need to practice thought stopping here)

[xalelle]

So it looks like I am going to be a lesson for everyone - even the best of situations will not be fixed overnight, and no matter how long the LBS thinks the sitch has been going on before they were aware, in the WAW's mind it has gone on much longer, so just a few days of better will never "fix" what they see wrong.

Last night was not amazing, but was good. I had a lot of bad moments - W was being friendly enough, but not close and cuddly like she had been the prior evening - I should have been prepared for this. From experience and from reading I know this is typical backlash to honest open closeness with a WAW - inside they are doubting you, angry for the need for the wakeup call, unsure of themselves - I have to remember that WAW's have completely convinced themselves that they are better without you, and when they feel drawn back in they have their own internal battles.

She was tired, and I know this is true and for good reason - she had been working around the house like a mad woman. She had said she was tired and was going to take a bath and then go to bed. I was worried as we had not really had even a close moment, but out of the blue she sends me a message that she wishes I could join her in the tub.

She was more awake after the tub, so we talked a little in bed and then a little cuddling and ML.. not as amazing as the previous evening, but very nice. We didnt cuddle as close after before going to sleep, but she was exhausted.

Today has been a bit tougher too, I am home and she has not been real close. A few chit chat things that made me feel good (plans and such) but she just has that look like things are on her mind. I have to continue with PMA and As If things are going to be ok, and keep myself from pushing or starting R talk. Maby later she will be in more of a mood to spend time with me. Maby not, perhaps she still needs time for my attention to sink in.

Regardless, must remind myself that I am fighting for our life, not the next few days. Whatever has gone on for her without me needs to resolve, and that will take its own time.

I also must remind myself to not snoop - reminders here on the board of what its like when there is an OP involved keeps me with the nagging thought that there might be one.. maby just a EA, but its possible.. so the urge to start digging kicks in. I tried to view her myspace, and found that she now has it set as private! I dont know how long it has been so (I dont do myspace, etc) but it is a scarry thing - who would she be hiding it from, she has all kinds of new friends on there! But, the thing is I know even if there is an EA or even a PA, if I want my M saved, I have to completely forget about it and be who I need to be. Digging and knowing, especially right now, wont help but to give us some stupid reasons to fight.

[xalelle]

Mostly Journaling,

the past few days have been good - W and I have talked about plans for future, have had some more very nice romantic times. She still seems somewhat distant at times, and still very busy when all I want to do is be with her, but I know part of that is that I am focused on her and I feel every moment not close 2x as bad as they are, and I created the environment in which she had to keep herself busy, so she has created habits of spending time on computer or chatting with friends.

The good thing I see looking at myself is this time I am not feeling such a need to come here looking for help, wishing someone would tell me the magic bullet to fix my M. I learned my lessons my first time through, I just needed some reminder. I focus on being better - in my sitch, as W and I are still very much together, part of that being better is focusing on her more - she hadnt walked so far away this time that she is not open to my attention.

So mostly I am here reading other peoples threads, trying to help them with what I have learned, sharing that knowledge because I was and will be a DB success, and my greatest hope is somehow through my experiences I can help a few others through it. I only wish there was a way to find people before they have gotten to the point where we all seem when we get here - where things are really bad.

I am also making a commitment to myself to come here at least once in a while for a long time - leaving the board when things were going well last time through, I think was a mistake, as I think my old DB friends would have caught me slipping and given me the wakeup call I needed before things got bad again. Seeing the same story again and again, helping others through it, should help me keep my reslove to continue to DB for life.

[xalelle]

Journaling,

It was a nice weekend if not great. W had an afternoon planned with GF which she spent, so not much time together, and two evenings out with our out of town guests (two women, so they had girls night out - I got sitter duty).

Yesterday we took a long drive with our kids and our visitors - ended up being much longer than we thought! but very nice drive through some beautiful back-woods country. W was not very close, at one point I tried to pull her aside for a romantic kiss, and that failed miserably, W just wasnt into it. She did hold my hand several times on our drive home, which only made me fall apart inside, I wanted so much for some closeness, and it felt so distant. I couldnt help but cry some, trying to keep it silent. I know my clingyness and tearyness is pushing her away - she has even stated that I am driving her crazy with it, but it is so hard.

one of W's constant complaints was that I am not close enough, dont show her often enough how I feel about her - and of course, now that I want to, she is not receptive to it. This drives me absolutely crazy. Especially after several very close evenings last week, with wonderful loving and cuddling sessions, lots of talk of futures and how much she wanted us together.

Somehow I have to supress my crazymaker. She has a lot of friends she im's and who call her all the time. She seems to keep this from me, but alot of it could be just my worried brain. I still think and realize there is a possibility of at least an EA and some of those messages are an OM, but I seriously doubt a PA as there just really hasnt been an opportunity for it. I suppose there is a possibility there is an internet EA that she just isnt ready to release, not yet ready to trust that I am fully comitted to her. Which, of course, shows that I really need to keep my crazymaker in check and not cry, not beg, not push.

She also had 2 psychic "readings" over the weekend. She says she dosnt belive these things and only did them for fun, but I know she at least somewhat belives. One of them she was telling me about and said "there is one part you wont like" - and told me she was told our M was "troubled" and would be over in 2 years. She did say she dosnt belive this and thinks that people can change it, and I forget how she said it but said something like if we can work on it we would be ok. Though she did agree it was troubled.. I guess that is true, or I wouldnt have had to come back here!

It's all so hard - we seemed to reconnect in a way we have not done for years at the beginning of the week, but the distance over the weekend has been tough. I saw so much of what I love about my W in those few days - she was happy, joyfull, full of light, but now she is back to not so much.

Have to keep reminding myself, long haul, not short wins. Hard because I want to make plans for us to do more together, find ways to be happy together.

Oh well.. another week.

[xalelle]

Why is it that everything makes me want to cry? I am having a horrible day of faith today - all I want to do is hold W, tell her how I feel. I guess a few days of not really having an opportunity after a few days of incredible closeness is taking its toll.. and W has basically warned me, stop it cause you are pushing me away (you are driving me crazy). Having a hard day of thougth-stopping. No crazymaker thinking of possible EA/PA, or anything like that, just wondering if tonight will be another poor night, or a good one.

W not feeling well today, and started morning with message "I thought you might stay home today" - I had hinted all weekend of taking a hooky day, but she kept saying I couldnt, and since she was not in a close mood last night and did not wake this morning when I left, I felt that staying home would just hurt me worse. So hard to read between W's lines and know what she really wants!

I also have to remind myself - life must go on. I must keep at my Job, though not obsessively. Have to continue to support my family, and some of the plans we have discussed for future do depend on my continued stable employment. So I will finish out my day, attempt to get a few important tasks completed, then try to finish up at a good time and get home to W. We still have company, so she may be busy, and is not feeling well today so may not be very friendly - though it will give me an opportunity to take care of her and show her I care.

I may just have to walk outside and have a cry and get it over with. I have to be strong tonight, no pressure, no clingy. Be ready for her if she is ready. When she is she will. I dont think she has given up on us, and even this morning when I called to explain my coming to work, she said ILY before I did, and in the middle of the conversation, not as a goodbye.

You know, sometimes I feel like I am being "db'd" - she GAL (friends and such), she detached (some shying away from contact), she LRTd (maby we need some time).. and now that she has pulled me back, she is taking her time.. She even stated outright that the week before the semi-bomb she had been intentionally avoiding contact so that I might see the problem. Wouldnt it be funny if W found DB and just does it better than me? LOL!

[xalelle]

Argh! Today is really testing me. I am having a hard time sticking to what I preach here to everyone else.

I guess because I keep thinking my sitch is not as bad as some, not as bad as my previous sitch, that everything will be ok. But then little things start to get my crazymaker going and I cant think straight.

Yesterday there was a lot of chatter back and forth between me and W - she is out of town, so this was mostly im, some phone. It was all very good, lots of love yous etc from her, was feeling very very good, especially as she returns home tomorrow. Then suddenly she turned cold.. and now today she is hardly talking to me. Ok, she did call this morning and talk to me for almost 45 minutes, but very matter of fact, discussing what she was doing, no i love you at all. She said she was nervous about coming home. I asked why, she said because of us. That she has been doing a lot of thinking while she was away and dosnt want it to return to what it was (I second that!). I asked her if she wanted us to work, and she replied sheepishly yes, but it wasnt very convincing. What is different today vs yesterday! ARGH. I know I may have annoyed her, something I did yesterday, (quite innocent, I assure you) she thought was "checking up on her". I assured her it wasnt, but from that point forward was cold. Didnt call to say good night at all, and did not call until late this morning. During the call she had very little to say about us, other than referring to a "hot" conversation we had had yesterday, and one mention of a family vacation to where she is. I did a bit of a DB slip, and I asked her to tell me she loved me. Twice. ugh. I know better. She did end the conversation with ILY, but todays radio silence is killing me, after the awesome day yesterday.

I am trying to keep my PMA up, realizing she didnt sleep well, is at the end of a long trip, end of vacation and returning to the daily grind, going to be missing the relative she is visiting, and I guess understandably concerned about our sitch, but I cant shake what I am feeling. Usually she times a message or something just perfectly to pull me out of my funk, but not today. Today she is leaving me in funkland.

I know I know I Know I know it is counter to all of my advice to others here, stop focusing on her, be ready to really shine when she returns tomorrow. I did tell her I took the day off to spend with her tomorrow, and she said you didnt have to but thank you (not insisting I go to work or anything) but somehow that still isnt enough for me today. The fact that I didnt sleep well isnt helping either. Gawd, I just want the next 24 hours to be over and she will be here and hopefully in my arms.

Sorry for barfing on everyone, my heart is very heavy today, as I realize my M is still dangling by a string, despite what seemed like great strides forward.

I just want to go somewhere and cry. Maby I will for a bit.