A recent thread over on the Infidelity forum ("Wife Wants Permission to Have an Affair") prompted this question, which I thought might be better posted here:
I'm curious as to how much -- if any -- you all would change your advice here if the marriage were effectively dead, by mutual consent. In other words, two parties agree that it's not working, they've tried everything they can do, and they agree to either separate or divorce, but it' takes awhile in their state. One spouse wants to date -- probably while the two spouses still even live in the same house, but with some "rules" -- while the other says "we're still married; you can wait a few months."
I have a friend in this exact same situation.
Some additional details, from an e-mail just this morning:
OK, after a long talk with my wife last nite, some things in her foggy mind are becoming clear to at least ME right now.
She would never characterize it this way, but it's become apparent to me that she doesn't really want a divorce (she's said so, and shown as much), or even a "separation" in the normal sense of the word (her having to fend for herself, logistically and emotionally, on a day-to-day basis).
No, what she seems to really want is my permission for her to have another AFFAIR, or some sort of "open marriage."
In her dreamworld, she would love for:
- me to continue to support her financially;
- me to have my own place (not here), BUT, me to come over here in the evenings and cook dinner for the boys and clean up, and help S10 with his homework, then get the hell out and go back to my own place so she can have her "space";
- her to not have to work full-time, or even take on any more hours (says it's "impossible");
- her to be free (and have my blessing) to "begin the rest of her life" by dating other men.
It's great work, if you can get it. :o)
Mind you, most of the above she obviously never SAID it that way, but now that I'm sober (the wine was flowing pretty good last nite as we were talking, and I just let her go), it's crystal-clear to me.
She apparently has become friends with a girl named ______ at the office. She's very recently separated, and (wait for it ....) she cheated on her husband (but OF COURSE "that's not the cause of their marriage coming apart" -- typical infidelity SCRIPT). She is supposedly going out for drinks with this girl either tonite or tomorrow night, and I smell a rat. Her appointment book is written as such that it looks like the entry originally said "Drinks w/ _______ & ????" and then the world "girls" was written underneath the "????"
Her cellphone is now locked, and she keeps it with her most of the time, just as she did back when she was having her affair. She's changed the username and password to the account, which I'm going to discuss with her today.
She's bought at least one new pair of black thong underwear.
Oh, and this guy _______ from the office, the resident "wolf"/avowed atheist, has a fully-furnished condo near here that he said we could use any time we want before the end of August, "no charge, of course" -- apparently he had gotten it as part of HIS divorce, and now neither he nor his wife use it. She let that one hang out in the air, but the hope was clearly that I would want to jump on that as a place for ME to crash (see "so she can have her space," above).
So add it up, and what I see is the usual "enabling girlfriend," recently separated, who has probably befriended my wife and they commiserate. And i think this girl has gone into "Oh, honey, we need to get you a DATE, so you can start gettin' on with the rest of your LIFE, girlfriend!" mode. In fact, I wouldn't be suprised if these drinks were for FOUR this weekend (I asked her who else was going, she said "I'm not sure yet ... she knows a lot of women...." and I said "Any guys going to be there?" and she said "______'s boyfriend," and then changed the subject. So THIS girl, altho still married and only recently separated, has a boyfriend, she's bringing him (why would you do this if you're just going to go out for "girl's night out"????), and I'm thinking a potential blind date set-up for (my wife)???
So the question is, Puppy, what do I DO about all this, (which of course is NOT the same dynamic as if we weren't actively figuring out the end of our marriage right now, but nor does it give her carte blanche to disrespect me), much of which is only speculation???
My instincts are to sit her down this weekend and have some sort of in-person talk version of the e-mail I almost sent her. That "I can see where this is going, (wife), and this is NOT going to happen this way again" talk (she had an affair two years ago). Option 2 is to sit her down similarly, but have it be more of "Look, I can't control what you do, but I do NOT approve of dating while we're still married, and I don't appreciate you not being able to wait a few months nor do I think it's appropriate parenting."
If this couple is decided upon separation and divorce, then your friend needs to let go and gain some acceptance and stay out of his stbx's personal life. It is up to her, not him, whether she dates. And her cell phone is not for snooping.
It is really irrelevant what her dream life would be. Her wanting it doesn't make it so. D is a business arrangement, and he should work with his L to secure an acceptable business arrangement.
In the meantime, he should quit trying to control his stbx, decide his own boundaries, and enforce them. So, what to do in this particular case?
STBXW: Hey, is it OK if I date? Friend: That is really your choice. I prefer that you be honest with me about it.
He could, I guess, let her know his boundary -- what he will do if he dates. But, determining and enforcing that boundary is really what his focus should be, rather than her and her choices. Certainly he should structure his life so that it is irrelevant whether or not she is dating. (This is consistent with an agreement not to have one's date in the shared household.)
That being said, he is pretty clearly not anywhere near being emotionally D, nor is she. They are evidently still living together. If they are serious about D, I'm not seeing it.
But, assuming they are, the best advice I could give to your friend is: Get an L. Determine who will move out. Make the move happen as soon as possible without hurting your position in the final settlement. Separate your personal and financial lives as quickly and cleanly as possible. D is business, treat it as such. And let STBX's personal life be her personal life.
I think he knows what to do. Sit her down and have the discussion that he thinks about. I agree with OT that they don't sound ready for divorce. This marriage doesn't strike me as done. She just wants to be a teenager again while her new "Daddy" foots the bill. Perhaps her new boyfriend would like to foot the bill, that might be more appropriate.
I'm curious as to how much -- if any -- you all would change your advice here if the marriage were effectively dead, by mutual consent. In other words, two parties agree that it's not working, they've tried everything they can do, and they agree to either separate or divorce, but it' takes awhile in their state. One spouse wants to date -- probably while the two spouses still even live in the same house, but with some "rules" -- while the other says "we're still married; you can wait a few months."
I have a friend in this exact same situation.
Some additional details, from an e-mail just this morning:
She would never characterize it this way, but it's become apparent to me that she doesn't really want a divorce (she's said so, and shown as much), or even a "separation" in the normal sense of the word (her having to fend for herself, logistically and emotionally, on a day-to-day basis).
It could be just me, but I'm not sure I'm seeing these as being the same situation at all. In the first case, it seems that there is a timeline, in X months we will be divorced/legally separated. In the second case, it seems that the expectation is that the marriage won't be ending any time soon, and that there isn't any plan to do so.
I'm not big on the idea of dating while the marriage is still in place. But, I could see possibly being persuaded that it was not totally out of line if the spouses were no longer supporting each other financially and emotionally. Clearly not the case in the case from the letter.
Of course, as has already been pointed out, trying to control the other spouse is a losing proposition. So it seems to me that the only course is to set the boundary, and enforce it. Meaning that the letter writer says something along the lines of, "I can't tell you what to do, but I will not live in this situation if you ..... In order to maintain my integrity, I will have to ....."
Like I said, in a case where it is really "just" time until the divorce occurs, but the spouses are not supporting each other (and I could even picture this in the same house, I think) I might think differently.
Like I said, in a case where it is really "just" time until the divorce occurs, but the spouses are not supporting each other (and I could even picture this in the same house, I think) I might think differently.
VH, just trying to make sure I understand you correctly here. Let's assume there clearly IS still financial, emotional and physical support going on here -- NOT two people's lives, separated; you are saying . . . what?
In the meantime, he should quit trying to control his stbx, decide his own boundaries, and enforce them. So, what to do in this particular case?
STBXW: Hey, is it OK if I date? Friend: That is really your choice. I prefer that you be honest with me about it.
Oldtimer,
Great stuff -- I will pass that along. I wanted to ask you though, since I know this guy pretty well and I know what his boundary WOULD BE, and it would be: STBXW: Hey, is it OK if I date?
Friend: That is really your choice. I prefer that you not, to be honest with you.
Is that appropriate? It would certainly be HONEST.
Friend: That is really your choice. If you mean am I "OK" with it, I would prefer that you not date before the D is final. ---
But, really, this is soooo much a conversation between people who aren't emotionally D. It would have seemed ludicrous to me to check with my XH after we were separated and emotionally D to see if he approved of my dating plans. And, if he had for some reason expressed disapproval, well, too bad for him.
So, I think that if your friend is really serious about a D, he should really suck it up and deal with the discomfort. He probably isn't going to feel great about her dating after the D is final. So what? The discomfort is really HIS problem to deal with, if the D is for real. He shouldn't be seeking her help or support with it. That kind of R is over. Her personal life is her personal life. His problems with her personal life are HIS problems. They don't need to be worked through as a couple, because their is no couple. (Again, this is under what I take to be the *false* assumption that they have made a clear and committed decision to both emotionally and legally D.)
I don't think one of them "checked with" the other. I think what happened was, his wife asked him if he'd be willing to separate instead of divorce, and what he thought of that. He then said he'd be willing to do that under 3 conditions, one of which was the "no dating while we're still married" one. His wife immediately agreed to the other two, but objected strenuously to this one.
To be honest, from the way he describes it, she's already got a date lined up for as early as THIS weekend. Woman didn't waste much time, and they, in fact, haven't agreed to ANYTHING yet, and remain married and living together.
Well, it is still up to him what he wants to do if she dates. He needs to control him and his choices, not her. So, there are lots of possibilities, like:
W: Hey, is it OK if I date?
H: That is really your choice. If you date, then I will proceed with the D.
--nothing wrong with that if the person is really ready to D, but I don't think that your friend is...
H: That is really your choice. If you date, I won't like it but I will tolerate it as long as (some set of rules.)
--yuck, either accept the circumstances or don't, but don't go this route and live together while sulking and brimming with anger and resentment
H: That is really your choice. If you date, I will be fine with it as long as (some set of rules.)
--only do this if it can really be true
H: That is really your choice. If you date, then I won't be bothered in the slightest -- no rules required.
TBH Puppy I find this whole thread a bit confusing...Ordinarily, from my reading of your position, you would advocate a stating of boundaries and consequences - but you don't seem to be doing that here...what's different?
