hi guys, had a tough night last night for some reason felt really low, had about 3 hrs sleep, going to be tough today at work so i might give myself the afternoon off. not good working with the saws and stuff when your tierd, beacuse ive been really friendly and jumped at everything she asked me to do. how do i start to go dark on her? shall i do it slowly at first so she dosent see through me, she is very clever at reading people and there body language. she called me yesterday beacuse she had a massive argument with a friend and needed support from me, i didnt show to much just a little beacuse if i was cold to her she would of sensed something beacuse ive always stood tall and picked her up when she was mad, sad or angry. i was thinking last night and the last month is almost a complete blur, little things keep coming back to me, stuff she said and so on, my wife will be moving into her rented property in 2 to 3 weeks so that should be a wake up call, at the moment she is with her mum, not rent to pay no bills at all, so i reckon she will certainly struggle, she has no job and even when she does get one the rent and bills will take every penny, she wont have any cash for leisure time. so im going to let her experiance all of this with no help from me, then august im going to take the kids overseas to a place my wife loves going we have been there 4 times, that will totally piss her off. i have a strategy set in place thanks to rob and all of you really, i know it will be hard and i need to understand it will take some time, how long? well i cant answer that. its time for me now and the kids of course but me time. to long ive given everything to my wife my heart my soul and she took my self worth, self respect and dignity. dont get me wrong im really hurting and dying inside but i know i can do this, especially with help from you guys, i couldn't do it without you, so this is day 1, and who knows i could be putting day 365 and still be in the same situation, but one thing is for sure if i can do this i will be a better man for it,
Rob, you have hit well over 50% of my situation. Probably in the 80-90% range. The one thing that I haven't seen evidence of is any type of affair. I do believe that she has an ideal marriage in mind and what kind of person that would be with. I am not ruling it out, just keeping aware.
beno, Hang in there man. The nights are killing me too. The swirling thoughts of the unknown future and trying to figure out what in the hell is going on don't allow for much sleep. My wife also moved into her own apartment. Although she has a job, I don't know how long she will be able to sustain herself. Her bills far outweigh her income and I have given her all of the cash that she can have (actually more than the fair share). I have closed the purse strings and don't plan to support her financially. This was her decision and she will have to figure it all out. It is hard as hell for me to keep that mindset when all I want is for her to come home, but I think this falls inline with taking care of myself and controlling my actions.
Take care
M 30 WAW 29 T 15 M 5 ILYBNILWY 3/8/09 Separated 3/14/09
I would say 80 - 90% is very high accuracy considering i don't know you or your situation personally so we can at least agree that our situations are similar.
Problems with sleeping are due to the fact that your world is upside down. The woman you love is not with you and the vacuum that was created when she left & separated from you is causing you alot of pain, you want to be with her (and you are trying to pull her back toward you by being extra nice, doing everything to please her) and she is pushing you away and trying to start something new (if she hasn't already). Push/Pull, it's an ugly place to be and we can't make that pain go away until you realize that you are creating that pain for yourself.
Women are attracted more to the way a man behaves, I'm not saying physical attractiveness, money, fame & all that other good stuff doesn't matter because it does matter to women alot but the way you behave is going to affect how she feels more than these other things. When you behave in an attractive way, she will respond in a similar way.
Insecurity & neediness repel women more than anything else. You are currently acting insecure & needy. You act that way by supplicating her: you do everything for her hoping that she will come back to you - that is insecure & needy. You stay up late at night thinking about her and wanting your marriage to go back to normal: that is needy & insecure. You are giving her money to live on her own, you are literally supporting her decision to be away from you and possibly be with other men hoping that she will see this and view this as being kind and make her want to be with you again, this is needy & insecure and on a deeper level, very manipulative on your part (yes, hard to believe it but this is the behavior you are displaying, when you do things for her & give her money, and buy things for her, you are communicating to her that the person you are isn't enough, you have to do all this other stuff to keep her or try to keep her with you and that is manipulation plain & simple, unfortunately it's a common trait exhibited by alot of men so don't feel too bad, just realize that's what you're doing and now that you know, change your behavior).
- Being insecure & acting needy also communicate that you are weak and women are repelled by weak men and it turns them off sexually, women don't want to be sexual with weak men. This is a base inner instinct, a subconscious awareness and a necessary one for women, it's a survival characteristic. If you go back to prehistoric times, women would have to mate & breed with strong men to ensure the survival of the species, they can't breed with weak men and produce offspring that are weak. I don't care what anyone says, this is an instinct that is hidden deep within the brain and it's not something that can be ignored. That instinct may be wrapped around a prettier and more intelligent container now (your wife) but it still exists. She is not going to be attracted sexually to someone who is weak, needy & insecure - that is you right now but thankfully, you can easily change that now that you know better. Read this a few times, let it sink in.
Picture the man you were when you first started dating your wife/wives. I'm sure you were different to begin with. You were probably funny, had a great sense of humor, confident, maybe a little cocky/arrogant, you exhibited leadership traits - you knew where you were going in life, you had a plan, you did things to make you happy, you spoke your mind, you weren't as reserved, you were assertive without being controlling, you were self-assured, and you were happy. Think about all of these things, this is what made you attractive, these behaviors attracted your wives to you.
Now picture the person you are now and include the feelings you are feeling now that you are in this mess (sorry, I don't mean to be insensitive). You changed, you became less of man, you became submissive, you lost yourself & your individuality. The sexual polarity changed: you probably feel more feminine and you feel that your wife has changed & become more masculine (remember what I said about women in their 30s, the extra testosterone, the hormonal changes, etc.). The hormonal changes are just limited to her, you produced more testosterone in your 20s and the production of that hormone starts to decrease as you enter your 30s... do you start to see the shift? Can you agree/admit that you do feel more feminine & submissive in your relationship with your wife and that your wife has assumed control in your relationship?
I don't think that women want the power in the relationship and when that happens coupled with the changes in their body, entering their sexual prime, etc. that they slowly start to seek out more powerful males, the urge to have sexual relations with other men to find a more suitable mate is very strong and they don't know why they feel this way - it's not their fault. If they were informed and knew about the changes in their bodies that were taking place right now, they would at least be better informed and could make better decisions, in fact you both could because you would realize what you've become and make necessary changes. Since women are attracted to more powerful men, men that take control, men that are confident, assertive, happy, content, dominant - you aren't that kind of man anymore. You're a family man, you work, you support your family, you help out a bit at home and even though those are all great things, they are boring (yes it hurts to hear that) and since they boring and not sexually stimulating, a woman entering her sexual prime is going to start getting direction from her body and her desires for something else, something new will be something she can't ignore.
You have to become more dominant. That means you have to stop being submissive & supplicative (I'm not sure that is even a word), meaning you have to stop jumping through every hoop for her and doing everything she asks of you just to make her happy. Don't turn into a controlling jerk, that isn't what you need to become and that won't help either. Take charge of your lives, start to become happy, go to the gym, pump some iron this will tell your body to start producing more testosterone, this in turn will make you feel better, stronger, more confident, assertive, and happy and in control of your life.
Your wives haven't initiated formal legal separations or divorces because they like having you around. While they are searching for their new lives, they are using you to heal emotionally to prepare themselves for the new life. They heal by feeling better at your expense: tell me you have noticed the nasty behavior, the contempt, cruel conversations, glares at you like you are pathetic confirming that they should leave you, demanding you to do things, expecting you to do things, jumping at their every command. They do this because they are healing, they are feeling better about themselves, power is a delicious feeling especially at the expense of others, don't fool yourself into thinking that your wives were "good girls" and would never be like this because they currently are like this.
They are healing themselves at your expense - you are lying awake in bed at night, stressed out, full of anxiety, longing for your wives to show you they love you, feeling weak, insecure, helpless that this is all happening and you can't do a thing about it.
Stop those thoughts right now. Stop those feelings right now. You have given this power to your wives, nobody says you have to continue doing this.
Limiting your contact with your wives is one of the first things you will have to do and it has to be really limiting contact. Don't make excuses for this & that, just do it. Any contact you make has to be minor & brief.
Another thing is to stop doing things for them, in fact stop doing everything aside from taking care of your kids when you have to.
Don't buy anything for them. Don't give them money and definitely don't pay for rent & furnishing (that made me sad when I read that, you won't get your wives back by buying them back).
Let me know how this long winded post sounds and if I'm hitting close to home with how you've been feeling and if any of what I've written is true for your situations - if it is, explain in detail how's it's similar. Speaking about it out loud with others is going to make the realization of all these events crystal clear in your minds, you will start seeing clearly again for the first time in a long time, it will definitely help. Men don't usually get many chances to talk about this stuff, so speak up, we're here listening & offering support.
rob, Once again you are hitting it dead on. I hope that I am not hijacking beno's thread, but it sounds like a lot of similarities in our situations.
In my 15 yr relationship, I was always the dominant one in the marriage. Not that I demanded that, it was just that she wouldn't take the initiative to step up in many aspects of our life. It seemed to be the dynamic that worked for us. In the last year or so, I have seen a shift in this dynamic of our relationship. My wife got a better job, started exercising and overall started exhibiting more self-confidence. I viewed this as a great thing and supported her in every way that I could. It was nice that she was able to make decisions and was willing to challenge the norm. I was enjoying sharing the reigns with her and the occassional sparring between us was new and exciting.
I can certainly admit that I have become more submissive in the recent years. Whatever she wanted, I tried to provide it. Even if I didn't agree with it. The submissiveness has grown exponentially since the separation. I find myself focusing on trying not to contact her, but the second I get the call or the e-mail I jump right to it. Everything goes out the door. This is an obesessive/compulsive behavior that I don't like in myself right now. I am sure that my mind is thinking this may be when she tells you she screwed up and wants to come back home. In reality, I know this isn't the case.
She sent me an email this morning stating that she will be staying in town this weekend alone instead of flying to her mom's for Easter. I immediately responded back by telling her that she is welcome to come over and be with my side of the family. I also suggested that we find a neutral activity to do together (i.e. movie, comedy show, etc...). I also told her that I had a little something for Easter to give her. Looking back, this was probably not the best response on my part.
M 30 WAW 29 T 15 M 5 ILYBNILWY 3/8/09 Separated 3/14/09
rob, ... In the last year or so, I have seen a shift in this dynamic of our relationship. My wife got a better job, started exercising and overall started exhibiting more self-confidence. I viewed this as a great thing and supported her in every way that I could. It was nice that she was able to make decisions and was willing to challenge the norm. I was enjoying sharing the reigns with her and the occassional sparring between us was new and exciting.
I can certainly admit that I have become more submissive in the recent years. Whatever she wanted, I tried to provide it. Even if I didn't agree with it. The submissiveness has grown exponentially since the separation. I find myself focusing on trying not to contact her, but the second I get the call or the e-mail I jump right to it. Everything goes out the door. This is an obesessive/compulsive behavior that I don't like in myself right now. I am sure that my mind is thinking this may be when she tells you she screwed up and wants to come back home. In reality, I know this isn't the case.
She sent me an email this morning stating that she will be staying in town this weekend alone instead of flying to her mom's for Easter. I immediately responded back by telling her that she is welcome to come over and be with my side of the family. I also suggested that we find a neutral activity to do together (i.e. movie, comedy show, etc...). I also told her that I had a little something for Easter to give her. Looking back, this was probably not the best response on my part.
Don't be too hard on yourself, up until now, where would you find education & advice on this topic. Men in general never get to talk about this stuff, there aren't classes in school either, what outlet did you have to take advantage of?
Would you say she started exercising when she got the new job? There is always some impetus for this type of action. If she hasn't been exercising ever and all of a sudden wants to lose weight, buy new clothes, start taking care of herself better (hair, nails, makeup, shoes, clothes, tanning, etc.). It's not that someone can't do something like this out of the blue but usually new actions are inspired by new events, new environments, new people, etc. It's really hard to say and very subjective and no one really knows for sure unless someone finally says something & admits it. Do you think she met someone at work?
I'll go back to this other point you made: ....I can certainly admit that I have become more submissive in the recent years. Whatever she wanted, I tried to provide it. Even if I didn't agree with it. The submissiveness has grown exponentially since the separation.
Did you read that part about not agreeing with it. If you didn't agree with it and still did it just to make your wife happy, you weren't being honest with her or yourself.
Women test men repeatedly, it's a subconscious thing, always testing to see if the man they're with is strong enough. The testing kicks into high gear when married women get into their 30s, the extra testosterone in their systems which is responsible for them being in their "sexual prime" makes them more aggressive. Once they see that you aren't strong enough to lead them (not control them), they start testing more & more to confirm the suspicions that you aren't a strong man. You keep on getting tested & tested and you figure succumbing to every demand will make your wife happy when in reality it's doing the opposite.
You have to notice that the more you end up doing for her, the further she is getting away from you. If you want to do stuff for her because you want to do it because YOU actually want to do it, not because you're doing it so that she will like you (which is what you are doing), go ahead & do it. Remember it has to be your choice to do it, you're not doing anything because you think it will make her happy - that isn't being honest with her or yourself and that is being manipulative, women hate that.
And since women can read body language and take your emotional temperature remotely just by looking at you, she knows how you're feeling and what you will do because she can bend you to her will, you've demonstrated that already.
Stop with the gifts, if you haven't given her a gift, don't do it, give it to someone else or take it back and get your money back. No gift buying, no supplicating. You see she expects you to do this, she knows that you think all you can do is attempt to buy back her love with gifts & gestures. Deep down she knows you're not good enough as is because you have been communicating that to her.
Stop supplicating: no more gifts, no compliments, no doing this, that and the other thing.
Remember being strong doesn't mean being mean & angry: be a better man, be strong, walk away when she talks poorly to you but let her know that you won't tolerate that crap behavior from her anymore and if she thinks that just because you're separated and because you love her that you will allow her to treat you poorly, that she is mistaken and she doesn't know you as well as she thought she did.
Man up, have some respect for yourself, no one will ever respect you if you show that you don't have respect for yourself. Time to be honest with yourself, do you like the way your wife has been treating you?
Be honest with her, maybe you weren't the greatest husband you could have been for her and maybe you didn't show her the kind of love she wanted or needed and honestly she wasn't honest with her needs & wants and leaving you shows that she never really wanted to give you a chance at changing and giving her more of what she really needed.
But regardless that is the past, if she has been keeping score on every bad thing you've done but never letting you know about her secret tally, she hasn't been any better than you.
Honesty is a requirement in every relationship, real honesty. Communication is a requirement, honest communication.
Respect is the ultimate requirement, without it, you won't get honesty or communication.
Show her you respect yourself and won't be treated poorly anymore, tell her this and then walk away. Don't be mean or angry, just be strong and honest. The first time you do this, the amount of energy you release will be incredible, the feeling in your stomach will be unlike something you've never experienced just be careful, most people will explode into a torrent of accusations of what someone did and it will turn into an argument. Say your peace & walk away and leave her where you found her, don't turn back if she calls your name either and she will likely demand that you turn around and may insult you in the process.
Just be strong and keep on going & walk away, this won't be your last discussion with her, I can count on that.
Doing all of this will bring her back down to earth from the clouds, she will start to understand that her days of treating you poorly are numbered and that you won't be a doormat for her anymore. People only walk all over you when you allow them, so stop allowing them.
She started exercising after a sort of New Years resolution in '07. She had never done it before and really started enjoying it. As she lost weight, she did buy new clothes but they were the same type of clothes that she had before. No major changes in hair, nails, makeup, etc... She has always kept these things up to high standards. Her new job came about the middle of last year. It was a promotion internally within her company. If there is someone at work, I have no idea who it would be. Up until she left there were no "fishy" events that would raise my suspicions. Romance was still there (actually the Tuesday before the bomb), we were still going out and kissing each other goodbye in the morning. We slept close and snuggled like always even the week between the bomb and her moving. Actually since she has left, she has only been out to dinner with her girlfriends a few times. She mostly stays home and watches movies when not working. Her girlfriend told me that she stayed in bed most of the weekend last weekend and didn't leave the apartment much at all. She is trying to get back into working out, but is having a difficult time. She has had to go on blood pressure medicine because it is going all over the map. Maybe a depression?
One thing that she told me the other night that further makes me feel that she isn't having a PA is that she has gotten off of her birth control since our separation. She has always been very paranoid about being on bc and making sure not to mess anything up. She said that she chose to get off of it to see how her hormones react and didn't think she would need it for a while any how (we were joking around when she said that). She did change to this new birth control last year and I have wondered if hormones were affecting this. I am torn because I don't want thoughts like that to be an easy out for my interpretation of her unhappiness in recent years.
Even her closest girlfriends and mother were blown away by her decision to separate. She had never indicated to them that she was unhappy in marriage in any way. Many of them feel betrayed because she didn't turn to them with what was going on inside of her. Her mother is calling me for updates, because my W just keeps saying that she is confused and doesn't know what she wants. That is the same thing that I keep hearing as well. They have always been very close to one another.
One major event that happened in our lives was that her father got ill and passed away ~'06 timeframe. The tough part about this is that when he got sick here in the states, he had to go to Saudi Arabia to be treated (her mother is American, her father is Saudi) due to insurance requirements. Since she was married to myself (an American) there wasn't an easy way to get her back in the country. In Saudi they considered her to be a Saudi woman. To make a long story short, my W never had any closure with her father's death. I would try to talk with her about it and she would get angry and defensive. It became a topic that was taboo for her and she bottled up these feelings.
As far as me doing things for her that I didn't want to do, I just looked at that as part of the give and take of marriage. I thought it would be best for me to keep negativity to myself and go with the flow. Don't get me wrong, there were times that I didn't agree with something and we would have disagreements, but I always liked to pick which battles to fight. The smaller ones didn't seem worth it to me.
I did feel better the other morning after telling her that it was unacceptable for her to call me up and start bashing me when she knew I was with a friend. It made me feel like I was setting a boundary, although she flipped it around and tried saying that I started it. I didn't argue with her, I just told her that there is a time and place for those discussions and that was neither the time nor the place. It was a scary thing to do, because I felt like I was pushing her away. On the other hand, I felt that it had to happen.
M 30 WAW 29 T 15 M 5 ILYBNILWY 3/8/09 Separated 3/14/09
Great advice rob - I'm extracting a lot to use in my sit, and would appreciate any in my direction should you wander by my thread (Sorry beno, didn't mean to hijack, but you got a great coach here)
Rob - I have learned a lot from you and my struggles on my own thread. I am connected to beno and Making_It as my sitch is all too similar.
My question to you... Are you saying to confront the EA (who knows PA) head on with her? From things I have read here/book seems like doing that I need to be prepared for a death sentence. Am I still not getting it? I know her too well and know if I do that now it will be over.
I have been detaching and am getting how to do that and not give up (thanks PearlHarbr). This is about my dignity. I have to walk in my shoes. Me and Me alone! No empathy needed.
Hoping not to hijack either, but that this helps all of us.
Me - 35 W - 32 (EA with OM) M - 13 1/2 D - 11 S - 9 ILYBNILWY - January 2009 Status - Limbo
i can help as much as i can, I don't mind, I don't profess to know everything, never have but what I do know, I'll share with anyone who wants to know.
I'm still relatively new to this site and all the acronyms are a mystery to me so bear with me, if I knew more acronyms, I'm sure my posts wouldn't be as long as they are.
