it's all a defense in some way or another isn't it?
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LL -- Is it that you really don't trust h? (Like, you honestly think for a second that h would lie about this kind of thing...) or is it that your brain is on autopilot questioning everything he says? Just out of habit or fear...like "he could be lying about this".
it's not so much I think that h would lie about such a thing, it's more that I now belive he COULD lie about such a thing..not that the child died any one who would make up such a lie is just twisted, but more that he would use going to the wake as a cover to go anywhere and not tell me..and not especially anything to do with ow or any w.
I want to trust him...but when I did trust him after first finding out about ow...I was a fool..he lied to my face over and over again...so I don't know that I can or should trust him now.
Quote: None of us likes to feel at risk. We all take different steps to protect ourselves from potential loss. Some, for example, are so afraid of failure that they avoid it by never attempting anything difficult. That's rather like being so worried about a burglary that you refuse to accumulate so much as a single possession. You are now being very brave. In the process, you are undoubtedly exposing yourself to a possible let-down. But you are also preparing yourself for a much more possible (and likely) moment of triumph.
I am so sorry to see how you are feeling.... I'd been avoiding your thread because my own M is over, and I thought you were doing great...
I think I know how hard this is for you. My H's internet porn/phone sex habit destroyed the trust between us, and it was only when he left that I realized how I had never really managed to totally let go of that and trust him. I think that played a big role in the breakdown of our M. It scares me to see you stuck in the same kind of place I was for 7 years. It isn't good for your M, but more importantly, it isn't good for you.... So, if you don't mind, I'd like to talk about my sitch a bit, hoping it will help you...
Not trusting my H undermined my self-esteem, made me feel insecure and unsure of myself, and haunted me as I fell asleep, and every time there was some missing time.... It kept real intimacy from returning to our M. Unfortunately, I didn't find the resources to let the past go until the bomb. I was always waiting for him to prove me stupid for having trusted him again... To pull my world out from under me once again... Once the bomb fell, I got over it, I don't know how or why, but it is different now.
This makes me think that the trust issue was about me and my fears about being duped. There has been a real shift here with me about this. At the end of July, after things had been looking up, H got involved with another OW, lied flat out to me about it, asked for a D, and moved in with her a few weeks later. Now, the thing is, he had promised to be honest about what was going on with this stuff, I chose to trust that he would be honest, and then he lied again. But, my reaction was totally different. I was not devastated by his lies, I did not feel like a victim, I did not feel like I was stupid for having trusted him once again. It was my choice to trust him again. I did it for myself and for our M to have a chance. I recognized and accepted the risk. And, when he lied again, my reaction was something like "too bad that didn't pay off, but it was worth the risk..." This was huge for me, and so very different. Why? I think because I gave him trust without also putting my world in his hands. DBing helped me take responsibility for my own happiness, so maybe that is why I could do it.
I regret that I couldn't do it before, I think it could have made all the difference. You want your H to be your friend and lover, but these things won't come without trust. You might think you hide it well, I thought I did. But, maybe I didn't so well, and it certainly blocked me from taking the leaps necessary for the intimacy in the kind of R I wanted. I wanted to stay safe and have my H cross the intimacy divide alone to get to my side. I felt it was his responsibility to do all the work, that he owed it to me for causing the rift to begin with. So, think of a tightrope. I wanted H to cross the tightrope alone to get to my landing, and thought then we would be where we should be. But, true intimacy only comes when both people take the risk, walk toward each other on the tightrope, and help each other balance in the middle.
I so hope you can find a way to meet your H in the middle. I know you feel that you've done more than your share. I felt the same way. Again with the tightrope--I fooled myself into thinking I'd stepped out, but my lack of trust kept me firmly tethered to my landing.
OK, this is getting way too rambly. I'll just close by telling you what I wish I'd done... Rather than trying not to rock the boat and assuming time would be the solution, I wish I had said "H, I have to lay it on the line. This M is not what I want. I want a vibrant, healthy relationship with a man who is my best friend and lover. I believe that we can have that kind of R, but not until trust is restored. This will take work, it won't happen without work, and I don't want to stay in this M unless we commit to doing the work together. Get the damn "After the Affair" book (which we had gotten) out of the closet and lets work through it together. Let's read the stuff in DB on rebuilding trust after affairs, and discuss what works there for each of us. This is not something that can fall by the wayside. We need to reevaluate each month to make sure that we continue to make progress. I am scared to death to tell you all this, I am scared that you will leave me and think this M is not worth the work, I am scared that you will agree and then nothing will happen. My fear comes from my lack of trust. So, telling you all this is a big leap of faith for me. I am taking a big risk for myself, for you, and for our M. So, what do you say? Can you take the leap with me?"
OK, rambling again.... I guess the main point is that my fear and lack of trust got in the way of my even being honest about the lack of trust, and of insisting that I would only remain in an R in which the trust was rebuilt.
Whew. Sorry for the stream of consciousness thing... But I've been worried about you and this trust problem for some time... I hate to see you make the mistakes I made... I think it is time to tackle this trust thing head on, either make it happen or get out of the R. You deserve the kind of R that can only come with trust.
Acorn -- what an astonishing, insightful, wise and wonderful post. I'm glad to see you back...and very, very grateful that you have shared these thoughts with us.
I hope you don't mind but I feel as though I MUST copy this post to a thread we have regarding "advice to newcomers to piecing".
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
It is haunting ghost we live with, those bold faced lies, the deception so easily run past us....I know that I 'question' a lot of what my H says, no matter how 'innocent' the statement I find myself LOOKING for the hidden agenda behind it.
All the second quessing we do is our FEAR and our SELF PRESERVATION trying to kick in to keep us from being 'conned' again. It will probably take many months to years to get over those feelings completely.
As an example of my 'craziness' just this morning, the 'bug guy' came to spray all around the outside of the house (we live off the water so spiders are an issue). When I brought him his check, I realized the "bug guy" this time WAS a guy that lived w/H when H was first thrown out. This guy knew about OW etc. My H hasn't told me this guy now works for the bug company OR that he's now living with another of my H's AA buddys. When he began talking to me and I suddenly realized WHO he was, my heart sank, my stomach went into knots and I thought, "How come when my H called to say the bug guy was coming he didn't tell me it would be this guy OR that THIS guy now lives at his other friends house where my H likes to hang out.
Although none of the above makes a hill of beans in my life, it was just another example of my H leaving me out of the loop...keeping the activities of his AA circle of friends "secret" from me. Ugh...
It's all this petty little stuff that adds fuel to the fire. T2
You sound very strong and introspective about your current M situation and I applaud you.
In some ways, I have taken the same position you did. While I remain vigilant and watchful for the "hidden agenda" in my Hs words and deeds, I have actually told him that THIS TIME if he's lying, or being deceptive, the ONLY ONE he's really lying to is himself because I'm not going to be in the "You've been conned again" loop anymore. I've told him that I am not taking what he says on face value, I am looking for action/proof that what he is saying and doing now are REAL. BUT, the truth is, that if I were to find out he was continuing to deceive me and has just become an all time pro at it, I will be devestated if the reality of that comes to light.
I don't want to look over my shoulder, read into everything he says for double meanings, second guess his every action or inaction....but that is the fallout of this adulterous hell we've all lived through AND it does fall to them to reassure us that we can begin to feel 'safe' again. JMHO T2
I know that I have general trust issues with the world but I did for whatever reason trust h at one time...but then again maybe I never did fully trust him...and now that I have reason not to trust him or rather that he's proven himself to be untrustworthy...I'm at a loss.
Do I just trust him blindy and not protect myself? Do I trust him but keep an eye out?
I just don't know HOW to trust h even when he's under the same roof with me or in the same room. It's not so much a matter of where he goes and what he does now (though that stuff creeps in too) it's him in general...now he's joined the rest of the world in being untrustable and there to just take advantage of me if I'm foolish enough to allow it.
I know what you mean about not knowing HOW to trust again. I tried so hard and couldn't until it was too late. But, that played a big role in why my R never truly healed. I don't know exactly why the shift happened for me as it did. I just hope you can make the shift sooner
I think, at bottom, it has something to do with the idea that my choice to trust him (post bomb) was a risk I was willing to take for my own reasons. And, I finally got that if he betrayed that trust, it was about him, not about me. It didn't mean that I was a stupid person, a door mat, a desparate person with no self-esteem. On the contrary, I chose to take the risk for the best reasons, I did the right thing, It was he that didn't. Before, the breach of trust was not only hard R-wise, but personally. I felt like sh*t about myself beyond the heartbreak of the R stuff. But now, hey, I'm a good person, with a good heart, who tried my best, who is willing to take a risk on someone. Yay! People will always let you down, sadly enough, but we let ourselves down if we let this keep us from putting ourselves out there...
... if I were to find out he was continuing to deceive me and has just become an all time pro at it, I will be devestated if the reality of that comes to light.
...AND it does fall to them to reassure us that we can begin to feel 'safe' again.
The old "conned again" loop... Being devastated if they do it again... Their responsibility... Boy, does that sound familiar. Exactly where I was stuck for years and it sucks.
I think the reason I didn't feel conned again this last time, (though I did have a thread called "done being duped", lol), is that I made the choice to trust fully recognizing that I might be let down. So, I really wasn't conned again, I was disappointed. This is a big difference for me... Before, when I tried to trust, I thought that meant I had to have blind faith. This last time, it meant that I would not bury my head in the sand, but that I would have the expectation that he would be honest with me. Hmmmm. It is so hard to describe....
Suppose you hire a shoplifter to work in your store who is supposedly reformed. You might have no doubts about them, and be devastated when they steal from you. You might not ever really trust them, be ever watchful, and no matter how you tried to hide this, they will know, and likely wind up stealing from you as a result, a la self-fulfilling prophecy. Or you might choose to trust them, but in a realistic manner. This wouldn't mean that they wouldn't have to work on keeping and increasing your trust. You start small and increase the trust as they earn more. But this is a mutual effort... Unless you take the risk to let them unpack stock, without assuming they will steal it, they'll never succeed in earning your trust so that you are comfortable letting them run the cash register. Now, suppose you took that risk, and then they stole from you. Would you feel conned? Or would you feel disappointed, but glad that you did the right thing in helping the person?
Yeah, another hokey analogy, but my point is that trust is between two people, one person can destroy the trust, but one person cannot rebuild it, no matter how unfair that seems... Waiting for them to do so sets you both up for failure.
Now, I don't mean that the person who broke the trust doesn't need to do a lot of work. In DR, I think, there's an example of a S who had an A who made themselves an open book. I think that is a wonderful act, and one that you might reasonably ask for. But, when I was stuck in the old conned again loop, my H did this for a long time, and it still wasn't enough. If he took to long at the store, I would worry years later. Poor guy. Yuck. As long as rebuilding trust is one person's responsibility, it is an impossible task.
A final thought: LL wrote that she didn't know HOW to trust again. I felt the same way. I also didn't know HOW to forgive. I'm doing much better with the trust thing, and am getting closer to the forgiveness thing. But, they both turn on doing it for ourselves. Michelle tells us that forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves. Trust is also a gift we give ourselves.
