Thanks DQ. Yeah, I guess we do have really BIG problems, otherwise I wouldn't be here. I just wish I could come up with something very SUBTLE, that he wouldn't think was completely out of the norm, that might get a rise out of him. Something I could do, that, maybe he wouldn't even notice overtly as being flirtatious, that could help me judge his "interest". Does that make any sense? And if he were to respond positively, that might make me a bit more comfortable to "push the envelope", so to speak.
I'm reading "subtle" as "tiptoe". Are you afraid to blatantly flirt with your H? If so, why?
Also, you began your initial post talking about not knowing your H's opinion of you as a lover. Your post above is focused on flirting and judging his interest. You can view these as two distinct areas in LM. You can examine the psychological and the procedural aspects of LM.
Can you tell us more about your sitch? The levels of desire of you and your H? Your history?
Now he has passed the poly and we are working on R, I'm trying for one, to figure out how to start over. And part of starting over is the sex issue.
"Are you afraid to blatantly flirt with your H? If so, why?" - Yes, I'm afraid. With all of this history, its very difficult for me to "initiate". I have such self-doubt and insecurities built up from all of this. Not to mention the ghost of his OP and there "escapades" that haunt me and eat away at my ability to think of myself as an adaquate lover for him.
"The levels of desire of you and your H? " - Tricky. That's why I started over in the SSM forum. In the beginning, I think he was HD and I was LD. Now, I think the roles have reversed some (not completely though). I have lost weight so that does help a bit on the self confidence part.
So when I ask how to flirt subtly, I am hoping to see a positive response from him. If so, then I can move on to the "communication" needed to find out if he thinks of me as a decent lover. Yes, its like sticking my toe in the water.
Oh, dug... There are major trust issues in your M, and I understand why. I'm sorry it's been so tough.
Whatever happened with the polygraph? Have you resolved the suspicion of the recent OW?
Given the history of your sitch and your recent thread about the discovery of a new OW, I am concerned about the foundation of your M. IOW, I think we have to hash out some things before we talk more about flirting and initiating and sexual performance.
So, what is going on? Do you suspect that he is involved with an OW?
He manned-up and took the poly, for me. And he passed. No physical contact with the OW2. The whole thing is huge. When I found out about OW2, that was it. I drew that line in the sand as well as others, him going to IC was one. He is doing this as well. And things are improving. He is owning his issues finally and working with me to work thru mine. So its going well.
So, the other night, we actually had a moment alone, without R talk or anything, were we could connect physically. And we did but I still have my doubts. He had me sit on his lap. I could tell he was wanting to "do it" (for lack of a better phrase). We sat for awhile, no words, just watching the game. I finally just said "do you want to go upstairs while we have a chance". He jumped on it.
Now, it was good (and quick because it had to be; kids coming home soon) but it just seemed rather "antiseptic" and plain. I did want to do it and I did ask him but there is that doubt. First doubt is that if he really wanted to do it, he would have initiated. Second doubt, he wouldn't have turned out the lights. Third, he NEVER "finishes" first. He always waits, then 'changes position' ( I don't want to give TMI if its not appropriate) so that he is not facing me. Then he finishes.
Leaves me feeling like a blow up doll.
Again, sorry if its TMI or the wrong place to post.
IMO, it's never TMI. Maybe there are some that can't handle it, but I can say that most of us in this forum have shared a whole lot of nitty gritty. Sometimes to make a point, sometimes seeking help, sometimes just because. Don't worry too much about editing, and just tell us what you want to tell us.
Your level of trust in your M needs to be strengthened through time. Lack of trust/diminished trust is a huge barrier to connecting emotionally and sexually. Though the polygraph was a success and gave you some satisfaction, it reinforced that you don't trust him. He knows that he is not on solid ground. Not easy to dive right into passion in the wake of what you two have been through. It is good to hear that he is in IC and that things are improving.
The mechanics of your lovemaking would not be such an issue for you if you achieved a more satisfactory emotional connection and open communication with your H. The same advice that Bagheera, Cinco, and DanceQueen gave you on your original thread still applies today.
Until you two are able to connect and rekindle your friendship and trust, you are not going to feel great about the sex. Your feeling like a blow up doll is a valid feeling. It just points to the fact that you aren't connecting outside of sex. If you were in sync with your H, you might just love that position from time to time.
Most of us would agree that having a routine set of positions for each LM session would get old and boring. There is nothing wrong with you having preferences and communicating them.
Why are you afraid to say something about what you like or dislike? Your preferences are not going to drive him to another woman. Your communication of those preferences should be done in a loving and sensitive manner, of course.
You want to be chosen, you want to be pursued, you want to be taken. Right? Have you communicated this to your H? Does he understand that in order for you to heat up, you need him to pursue you in AND OUT of the bedroom, consistently, throughout each day?
Can you think of instances in which you two communicate the best? When it seems that you are in harmony and "clicking"? Perhaps those scenarios can be leveraged to segue into a discussion about communication, connection, and passion.
I know that communication is a huge issue with us. We are working on that, although its not where I wish it was. Of course we are so far behind with this, I suppose its to be expected.
I do see trust as a huge issue. I just don't know if I can or will ever get to that place with him. We've got so much baggage at this point.
Why am I so afraid? Not feeling good enough. Fear of rejection. Us never communicating about this (among other things) leaves me fearful that if I say I want or need something, he will not acknowledge it. The constant wonder if I am a "good lover", since he had sex with someone else (with big giant boobs and 10 years younger than me) that I am not measuring up. Now, he has never said that and I realize that I am the one thinking these things but its still there.
And I just don't see much desire for me in him. Again, I realize we are just starting over again and that things will take a while but it always goes back to this; "IF one of his most important needs is sex, why isn't he interest in doing it with me?"
I thought men didn't care about any of this emotional cr@p that we women get caught up in and just wanted to have sex, no matter with whom, where, when, etc.
Of COURSE men care about the emotional side. They're not robots. Our society has trained them to "brush it off" and "act like a man." They're expected to be wearing a suit of armor at all times. It's not fair at all.
He likely has some shame that he's dealing with. Not only with cheating, but with sexuality in general. Hopefully he will work on that in IC.
Your self esteem has taken a hit from the A's (understandably). Perhaps you can take some time exploring yourself to work on healing. Of course you are worthy and deserving of sex and love and passion. You just have to get there in your own mind, in a healthy way. Have you read any of the books that were recommended to you in your initial thread? They are excellent. Also check out "Mama Gena" books - They are more fun and will help you explore yourself.
By the way, I was hoping you would also put some thought into these questions and provide a response:
1) You want to be chosen, you want to be pursued, you want to be taken. Right? Have you communicated this to your H? Does he understand that in order for you to heat up, you need him to pursue you in AND OUT of the bedroom, consistently, throughout each day?
2) Can you think of instances in which you two communicate the best? When it seems that you are in harmony and "clicking"? Perhaps those scenarios can be leveraged to segue into a discussion about communication, connection, and passion.
As far as feeling like your H doesn't desire you... You're posting in the right forum. We're all struggling with that here! It's a slow week, but hopefully others will pop in to say hello and offer their viewpoints soon.
I know that men are not robots but, at least in my case, my H's ability to "feel emotion" is sorely stunted. His family does not express emotion, EVER! No I love you's, no hugs, never express displeasure with someone. Not to mention, his #2 need (as identified by him) is sex. And the fact that he can explain away sex with OW1 as nothing special. Just getting himself off. That it doesn't mean that much. Just sex. Of course, if you read their texts and emails, you'd think differently.
I've done a lot of reading. I haven't gotten back to Bagerra's list yet, as we had this bump in the road when I first started in the SSM forum. I just last week, found the Mama Gena's School of Womanly Arts while getting my hair done. I am reading it now.
"1) You want to be chosen, you want to be pursued, you want to be taken. Right? Have you communicated this to your H? Does he understand that in order for you to heat up, you need him to pursue you in AND OUT of the bedroom, consistently, throughout each day?" - Yes I want this and no I've not communicated it to him. I'm still trying to get him to open up about anything. And, to be completely honest, I don't want to be that vulnerable with him right now. I have too much fear. So I guess I am creating my own problems but I don't know how to move past the fear.
"2) Can you think of instances in which you two communicate the best? When it seems that you are in harmony and "clicking"? Perhaps those scenarios can be leveraged to segue into a discussion about communication, connection, and passion." - Not really. Sad, I know. I guess we just don't know each other that well. And I will say this, its not for a lack of trying on my part. He just can't open up (at least to me).
Example: We are reading a book called Love and Respect as directed by his IC. I am learning that men need Respect like women need Love. I also know that H's #1 need is to NOT be DISRESPECTED (I know, double negative, but that is how he phrases it). Now, this is NOT new to me. He told me this back before he left me, when we were giving it 6 months. For me, I am at a loss as to what that looks like, outside of sarcasm and nasty looks on my face, which I am famous for. I have asked him over and over and over again, HOW CAN I RESPECT YOU. I asked him again 2 nights ago. He says he will think on it and when we have our weekly "Power Talk" per MC, we will discuss it.
Now, if he can't tell me what it is, how can I change it? I tell him this and he understands but I still have not answer as to what RESPECT looks like to him.
This is how our conversations go. I want to know something personal about him, he doesn't want to talk about it or shelves it. So, you might be able to see how a conversation about sex might go.
This book does a very good job of explaining, and then exploding -all- of the common male relationship myths, including such topics as showing and talking about feelings [gasp!], and male sexual expectations and performance. There is an entire chapter containing exercises for the man who is out of touch with his feelings, and who probably thinks he doesn't have any, they're so heavily suppressed.
It would also be a great read for YOU too, to help you understand your man better.
Take care,
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
