Bagheera - I hope you two can find your way back to that "gray area" of everlap again. I echo what Lucky says about you being a beacon of hope for us here. You are so strong and have taken the right road to find a way to make your marriage work. I know the struggle to get the passion in your marriage that you desire all too well. I have asked myself that same question:
It it fair for me to ask this of her? I won't change so why should she?
There must be some way to build a bridge across this chasm between our desire where we meet in the middle and in an embrace, just love one another as we are.
I know of no one here more capable of weaving that rope bridge joining the two sides than you Bagheera.
Bagheera understands very well that he has to lead his marriage. That doesn't mean his wife is passive, or that he does all the work. But it does mean he sets the tone and structure of the marriage, within which his wife can safely express her own sexual self.
The masculine does not wait around for approval, it just gets on with things, pushing relentlessly through time, making the very best of what nature has given him, and accepting and being grateful for the problems challenges that life continually throws his way.
A man that understands this and lives it, and does not recoil or lean on others, will have within him the "presence" Bagheera refers to. Because he accepts what a man's life is about, and is therefore fully "present" in it.
I want to ask, what does Mrs. Bagheera say/think about the "dealbreaker" part of this?
It's perplexing to her: it's your old lesson about how hard it is for a naturally LD person to understand a naturally HD person and vice versa.
"But we still love each other!" Yes, we do, which is why we've put so much effort into trying to make it work for the past many months....
"But it's such a SMALL part of our overall marriage!" To you, perhaps it is, but not to me.....
Originally Posted By: DanceQueen
For instance, she has tried, very hard, but isn't really making much progress in her own desire level for more intimacy increasing. So...is it a dealbreaker to HER too? Does she want to be left alone to just be who she is, now that she's really tried very hard and knows that effort won't yield much more desire?
No. I know that she's willing to keep working on it, and trying to awaken her 'sexual diva' -- although that effort has slacked off with her job onset. I personally don't know how long this effort can be sustained before she starts to falter and feel resentful about it.
Originally Posted By: DanceQueen
Is she willing to feel like you are behind her with a whip for the rest of your lives (I remember you said she described her feelings that way at one point)?
Yes, to a degree. It's rather like what LuckyGirl was referring to above in her quote from S&A talking about me. I DO accept and understand that my wife will always have trouble accessing her sexual self unaided, and that it will be up to me to frequently 'punch through' her resistances and other 'operating modes' to bring her sexy out. However, it gets tiring when this is the -only- way to bring her sexy out, and an often lukewarm sexy at that.
As a man, I also want some sexual enticement thrown in MY direction on occasion --> that peacock needs to shake her tail feathers at me from time to time, and get MY blood boiling for a change. I don't mind (and enjoy) chasing and conquering my woman, but I need to feel like my attentions are wanted and invited from time to time, rather than -always- having to hit her over the head with my club and drag her off to my cave.
Originally Posted By: DanceQueen
And the other question, I guess she must know that this is a deal breaker for you, from previous conversations you must have had....does this frighten her? Does it make her not want to tell you how she really feels, for fear that you will leave?
She knows, directly from me this weekend. And yes, it frightens her. And yes, I feel like an ass admitting that's how I feel, but she needs to know what is honestly at stake.
Originally Posted By: DanceQueen
....in a strange way, I am happy for Mrs. Baggy to be able to be honest with you. I think some wives in her shoes would simply claim that their desire for intimacy had increased, all the while, the husband would *know* it still wasn't what he was seeking...and she would just be trying to bluff her way through it. At least, Mrs. Baggy has the courage to be authentic and tell you her truth. Sad as that is to your marriage.
I honestly don't think she understood the implications of what she was saying, immediately. In her view, she still tends to see me as seeking only that 'physical release,' rather than the physical and emotional connection that goes with it. So since she's continued to 'put out' regularly for me, it didn't seem like it should be a big deal that her personal desire wasn't really behind it.
I also recognize that there is a bit of covert contract crap going on in my head today. After one and a half years of working my butt off to meet her love needs in all areas, consistently and for the long term, her physical desire for me remains stuck where it was when I was being an angry, withdrawn jerk? WTF?
Yeah, yeah, I know. It doesn't work that way.
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
Though I'm higher D than my H, I still need a little help getting in the mood to give him a display. Largely because of the "I don't feel pretty/sexy/deserving of sex" force in the crazy part of my brain. I notice that when I am put together on the outside, I am much more apt to be flirtatious.
I'm sure your W is getting dressed and made up for work. But, do you go out on dates? Does she have a reason to get "prettied up" and feel sexy?
What if you looked at her point blank and said, "Get dressed. We're going to dinner" or "We're going to X to listen to music Saturday night." No smiling (but not angry), maybe just a smirk, tempered warmth. Sort of like a cowboy who doesn't care if his woman wants it or not. Would that possibly force her into a more feminine mindset so that when the evening comes, she is nervous and almost giddy because of how you're handling her, she gets dressed thinking that every layer will be important (not just the outer one), and becomes naturally inclined to be your peacock?
What I'm suggesting here is... Rather than ask if it is fair to ask her to change her LD if you don't want to/can't change your HD... Instead, focus on changing your mindset and approach to her to see if that might be a catalyst to change her level of desire.
I mean no disrespect, Bagheera. I haven't read all of your years of trying, so if this is not helpful and frustrating to read from a newbie... Like a PhD listening to advice from a toddler... please excuse me.
Or, maybe you've already tried "cowboy" with no luck and might try out a new role.
What I'm suggesting here is... Rather than ask if it is fair to ask her to change her LD if you don't want to/can't change your HD... Instead, focus on changing your mindset and approach to her to see if that might be a catalyst to change her level of desire.
That's been the story for the past several months, and it -has- yielded some positive results. This weekend's news felt like a row of F's on a report card that I expected to get A's and B's on -- it's knocked me into the dirt, from which I need to get back and up and dust off.
Originally Posted By: LuckyGirl
I mean no disrespect....so if this is not helpful and frustrating to read from a newbie... Like a PhD listening to advice from a toddler... please excuse me.
Lucky, hon: feel free to make suggestions or even jerk a knot in my smartass tail whenever you like. My Ph.D. is in Planetary Science, a field in which the participants are generally so career-driven, that then tend to have notoriously BAD marriages...one after another. I'm one of the toddlers on this board.
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
Baggy - I just want to offer support and tell you, that I (and I suspect EVERYONE here on the SSM board) DO UNDERSTAND what it means to want her to WANT YOU. You want to feel desired, you want to feel that your partner wants to ravage you, you want to feel her lust for you steaming off her skin, you want to see that look in her eye that says "I'm going to eat you alive", you want to be seduced, you want her to chase now and then, you want her to tell you unabashedly the naughty things she plans to do to your body later....I think this is the one area where a truly LD person will always struggle. They can't really understand the HD person's desire to have this, as they actually don't want that kind of attention on a regular basis. They feel uncomfortable with it.
But anyway...just wanted to back you up 100% and tell you that, no matter what happens with your sitch, you are normal and are asking for a very NORMAL thing when you say you want to feel wanted by her. You aren't just sex starved to want this from her. You will still want it even if the frequency of sex goes way up. You will still want it if you changed life partners. You will still want it if you were single again (ie: you'd want to watch for strangers sending you sexual clues that they want in your pants). It is a part of some of our sex lives, so inter-twined, as to be literally inseparable.
I'm addicted to sexual attention. I need it and crave it, even if it doesn't lead to sex. Without that attention from my man, I would lose interest in him quickly, and would quickly be seeking the attention elsewhere. I know that's not really the "right" thing to do....but at least I am honest with myself on what I need. So far, all signs indicate that he will not take that attention away from me, so I feel I can move forward with the relationship and get married. If I had even the slightest hint that the attention might dry up, I would back waaaay off and would ultimately have to decide how to proceed, if at all.
So I'm just sayin'....I hear ya, and I would be in a quandary just as you are. Its hard to be true to yourself, when that might mean not being true to your marriage. Yet ... how can we really be true to someone else if we are not true to ourselves?
You deserve to be chased and lusted after Baggy, in case anyone hasn't said that to you lately.
I'd chase ya myself, were we single people...haven't even seen a pic of you but I know enough about your spirit to know I'd chase ya! :0)
Baggy said: "...it's knocked me into the dirt, from which I need to get back and up and dust off."
GOOD. So you're not giving up or giving in to your own self destruction. That's all I wanted from you. Now I can sleep easy.
Baggy: You made a beautiful wave today. Your initial post made me realize in horror, not only did I stop kissing H for many years, but I also stopped sending out my love and admiration in notes/emails and in our phone conversations. All business, self protection, fear of rejection, uncomfortable being the initiator. As soon as I realized this, I took a break from reading your post to send a saucy text to H who is away on biz. Not only did he send saucy stuff back (and forth a couple of times), but I imagine it gave him a nice boost that helped him navigate his high-pressure meeting. I bet he was able to make better eye contact and smile more, which probably influenced others as well.
Never underestimate your power to make great things happen.
Bagheera - Thanks for the photo, I always like to see the person behind the posts. Now we get to see the rugged good looks in which your spirit is housed. (I wish I could grow a beard, I don't have any side burns.)
One thing I would like to add. When my wife went back to work recently, I thought that was the end to anything ever happening in the bed room. She would never have any energy left for me. It was that way at first. But then after about a month or so she had settled into the job and things did get back on track somewhat. So maybe it is just a set back for you two as Mrs. Bagheera settles into her job.
