In one of your post you mentioned that this would be your second D and that you had to testify against your xW in court.... it made me think that obviously you have been down this road before and probably your W has witnessed all the mess and legalize that you have gone through with xW. I think in your W's own crazy rebellious way she is doing the D, which she has started relatively quickly, to get back at you/as a way of rebelling per say. I think you guys are playing the divorce war game right now. Difficult for me to explain, but from my sitch, my H knows how badly I wanted to have a family, had fertility issues, went to all these doctors, and it has been a real emotional pain for me. And for this reason, H now has a child with OW and says he feels like he has a family with her, etc. Mean, yes!! What I mean is that there is a thin line between love and hate and our spouses who know us well know what buttons to push. Your W knows that you would be hurt to have to go through another D, and she knows that you will fight her bitterly in the D war and its something you would win because you're good at it. It like something I read in a book, even negative attention is attention. I think you need to stop playing divorce war for a while. Just stop it. Try to postpone any divorce filings. No need to rush anything... you have your evidence. The kids are with you for now, stop playing the game. You said that your main conversations are about your daughter and the divorce, please try to put the D on hold, there should be a way to postpone on your part. Hey, if you will get D, there is nothing wrong with waiting a little bit. But try not to play this war game for a while, have conversations just about your daughter. Try to show her that the upcoming D is the last thing on your mind.
-snip-
I may be wrong about your sitch but this is what came to me in reading your post. Try it and see how it works. You can always start back playing the "I declare war/divorce" game at a later time. Try to show her her tactics to get you aroused/hurt is not phasing you one bit. Go on being a good father and happy as can be (with bad days of course) and see if she doesn't rethink her actions. Hey she may go... hey, this isn't bugging him, maybe I should stop.
Good luck.
I have actually considered this a couple of times... she acted so 'shocked' that I dared to hire my own attorney. Everyone who knows what I've been through has said "Well what did she expect? She knows what you went through last time."
So your idea is probably closer than I'd like to admit. I spent all of January saying "I want us to work together and part as friends" and she set us up, knowing it would lead to a fight. She refuses to compromise even on small issues, and all it is doing is setting up the long haul campaign.
Of course, I'm all smiles and talking about the baby and other things in person. Behind the scenes I have been striking fast and hard in the 'war' with the expectation that maybe a peace treaty will be signed, maybe not. But for now I know that I'm at war and will have to execute it methodically and persistently.
I'm not bringing it out into the open... and neither is she at this point. She knows we are engaged, and she knows I've tipped the scales, and she knows I'm not giving her what she wants.
Of course, today I asked if she wanted to set up to go to the therapist together, and she said "I'll think about it."
I didn't bite the hook, told her "I hope you do. I think it would be really helpful for us. Have a great day."
I'm not going to say anything more about it, but I've put the idea out there. I'm hopeful that it takes hold and she surprises me. But I'm not counting on it.
As far as the D, I'm backing off that part emotionally and letting it handle itself. It is just a waiting game at this point.
"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into."
Please stop the war. Funny thing is I bet you responded to Sadi's post before reading mind and it confirmed that you are in war mode. Yes, it is true, divorce is basically a war and it can be brutal. But I think you may have been caught in the war mode your xW that this feels kind of comfortable for you. Not to say that you like the war, but you have learned how to war and its not new to you. I think here of something Michele said, if you want your marriage to change, you have to change. And also when we react our partner react and then we respond and then you react or vice versa. I think YOU need to break this chain. A war can only be carried on if there are two people battling. Stop fighting her in the divorce war. You and your wife are separated, be just that separated for now. It's only been three months since you S and emotions have been going wild since then. Calm things down on your end and I think they will calm down. If you keep finghting, the divorce war will go on until it ends in divorce with one of you thinking I'm going to show him or I'm going to show her and neither of you will win. In my sitch, H and I have been S since Sept. and the first three months we were constantly fighting. It wasn't until I got with DB, and decided that I didn't want to fight anymore more like I wanted to fight less, that we are now civil to each other. Maybe one of your goals right now should be that you and her become civil with each other. Even if you get divorce, there's is nothing wrong with being civil for the sake of your daughter. I truly believe she is doing this because she knows how much it will hurt. By the way, who filed the D, you or her. I think you said she did, right?
Anyway, I think you should call a truce for now. She will try to instigate a fight but put down your dukes for now and live and be happy. Let her see you happy and civil as can be. Will shock her to death and I bet she will come around. Maybe you should tell that you are postponing the D proceedings for a few days because you want some time to think. I only suggest this becasue in your case I think this would be a 180 that may shock her. She is use to you fighting the divorce war, so I think it will be a surprise. Just a thought.
On the personal front I'm being civil and happy as can be. But based on her behavior, dirty tricks, etc. on the D front I have no intention of backing down. If she gets any sort of opportunity to gain the upper hand I guarantee she won't give me the same courtesy you are suggesting.
I sort of lay dormant while I was building evidence, and W became more and more brazen with threats, demands, etc. as did her attorney. They thought they were poking at a piece of wood on the ground and all of a sudden found out it was a rattlesnake.
If she wants a D, I'm going to give her one she'll never forget. If she expresses a desire to return to the M (she hasn't) then I will consider backing off.
In either case, I intend to be cordial, respectful, and non-judgmental and as loving as possible. I think that bothers her more anyway, because if I was screaming and yelling like a lunatic at least she could feel good that she was driving me nuts.
"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into."
In all truth to me, you sound like a man who experienced a bad war before and see the signs in time to get prepared for the worst. I am sure your emotions must be like walking a tight-rope between love and hate most of the time. You seem very mature for a young man (a compliment) and I do wish you all the very best for you and your family. As I told another poster today, we who respond on almost a daily basis to people on the board may sound as if we are finding something negative when we are just trying to point out things for them to watch for so they won't hurt themself more in the future. If I were in your shoes and especially being through what you have, I can't say that I would blame you for your actions. I think it is so sad that you have been hurt by two women already before you have reached your 30th birthday. I just would hate to see you get sour on all women or to think they all are cut from the pattern.
Continue to do what works and try to keep down the talk of D and stay positive and I think you will be okay. Hope things won't have to ever reach the courtroom.
Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
In all truth to me, you sound like a man who experienced a bad war before and see the signs in time to get prepared for the worst. I am sure your emotions must be like walking a tight-rope between love and hate most of the time. You seem very mature for a young man (a compliment) and I do wish you all the very best for you and your family. As I told another poster today, we who respond on almost a daily basis to people on the board may sound as if we are finding something negative when we are just trying to point out things for them to watch for so they won't hurt themself more in the future. If I were in your shoes and especially being through what you have, I can't say that I would blame you for your actions. I think it is so sad that you have been hurt by two women already before you have reached your 30th birthday. I just would hate to see you get sour on all women or to think they all are cut from the pattern.
Continue to do what works and try to keep down the talk of D and stay positive and I think you will be okay. Hope things won't have to ever reach the courtroom.
Sandi
I truly appreciate you taking the time to respond to me and keeping up with my situation.
Yes, I experienced the whole custody thing before - and I saw what was coming and by the time I was 'surprised' by the D-filing I just sighed and was already making a note to contact an attorney I had touched base with earlier in the week for the possibility of a contested D and began gathering evidence.
I first got married at 18, first S at 18. Second S at 19, first D at 20. Bought my first house at 20. Went through custody, etc. and finished that up at 22. Bought a second house at 22. Cleared out all my debt by 23 except for second house by selling first house. 2nd M at 24. D1 at 26. Death of father in law, affair, testifying against xW to help put her away until 2025, etc. and now 2nd D at 27.
I've been through a lot, but I'm pretty well-grounded. 4.0 GPA in college until this started, steady job for the past 5 years, 8-5 career, weekends off, and basically my major vice was watching college football on Saturday during the fall. Very easy-going, doesn't take much to entertain me, etc.
Not many people my age have been through as much yet are still standing tall - and I am proud of that in a sense. I remain humble, but I try not to come across as arrogant. No matter what I've been through, I've always kept the following verses close since I was going through the first custody situation:
Quote:
Philippians 4:11-13 (NIV) 11 I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances.
12 I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want.
13 I can do everything through him who gives me strength.
I live that.
And yes - I am walking that tight-rope daily. I love W and I hate W. I just try to focus on my priorities, and make sure that I'm doing what is best for D1.
I talked to W on the phone tonight, we talked about what time I was going to pick up D1, and she seemed adamant that she wanted to pick up D1 from my house (next to OM) and I was telling her I had to do things on her side of town anyway and would just drop her off - so she didn't have a valid excuse so I'm probably ruining her weekend there since her mom has cut her time with OM down to almost nothing.
That being said, I mentioned C over the phone and told her that the last thing I wanted was for her to feel threatened in a situation, and that I thought it would really help us work together for D1 to lay everything out on the table and see if we can work through some issues. That whatever has happened - we were at least friends before and we should try to get back to that point. I told her that I understood it would be a hard thing to do, but it would say a lot about her if she did, and I'd be proud of her if she chose to go. Then I left it alone.
Not going to mention it again, but I'm hopeful she makes the phone call to set up a joint appointment.
"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into."
I really do appreciate you telling me all of that about yourself. I don't think you are arrogant, especially after you explained all that you have been through and yet you still accomplished a lot. There is a difference in confidence and arrogance. You know where your "power" comes from and that is what is important.
Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Apparently I didn't ruin her day after all. When I picked up D1, W's family told me she just left to go stay at OM's house all day - and she even told me that she was there and that I just needed to bring D1 to my house and she'd get her there.
Her family pretty much came out and said they know what is going on at this point, and I spoke to W for a few minutes before she left and asked her if she had any interest in seeing if the M could be saved at all. She said "No."
I told her I didn't expect anything different as far as an answer - but told her I'd at least like her to come clean with me about her relationship.
I asked how long it had been going on. She said "It hasn't been going on long." I told her I suspected since October/November and she said "No it wasn't going on before we separated." I told her "So you admit you have a relationship going on now?" She said "No I'm just talking about friendship." I said - "You two were friends long before our separation, as far back as August - so what do you mean by 'it hasn't been going on long'?"
Then she just said "I don't know. I'm just going to go."
So she still isn't being honest about it, and is very much entrenched in the fog, because I got video, etc. that is going to just add more. She was parked out front of his house the entire day.
Anyway, told my therapist it was just going to be me coming from now on.
I picked up "Not 'just friends'" today from the book store, so I hope to read that.
LRT/GAL is my only recourse at this point, and I'm going to be doing what I have to in order to win the 'war' that is ongoing as well.
It didn't really phase me at all talking to her though. I wasn't hurt, I wasn't angry. Just astonished that she is that far into the fog that she doesn't realize she is shooting herself in the foot legally - and we have deposition next Friday which is going to kill her case considering all the evidence I've got if she tries to lie.
I did ask her if she felt guilty at all, and she waited 10-15 seconds before answering "I dunno" and shrugging her shoulders.
Just... wow...
"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into."
Based on my fogged conversation with W yesterday, and based on the fact that her family is enabling her A and thus is a de-facto condonation of the A, I have no choice but to focus on custody, going through with the D, and continuing in GAL and moving on.
I will be working with my therapist for a bit at least in trying to keep the door to reconciliation cracked. But at this point, W is flaunting her A in my face by spending the entire day at his house next door, half-way admitting to the A and then backtracking when I ask her directly with a "just friends" answer.
Anyone have any advice, or seem like I'm doing what I can do? I recorded her conversation and it is just astonishing how she basically admits to the A, and then backtracks a few minutes later saying "no I was just talking about being friends."
"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into."
I asked how long it had been going on. She said "It hasn't been going on long." I told her I suspected since October/November and she said "No it wasn't going on before we separated." I told her "So you admit you have a relationship going on now?" She said "No I'm just talking about friendship." I said - "You two were friends long before our separation, as far back as August - so what do you mean by 'it hasn't been going on long'?"
Then she just said "I don't know. I'm just going to go."
She's lying. About ALL of it.
All you can do at this point is gather/retain your evidence, lovingly detach, and lay out and enforce your boundaries and do your own GAL stuff (for you, not for her) and protect yourself legally. Is yours a "fault" or a "no-fault" state? Carrying on an affair with the next door neighbor, while her children are about, will not be looked kindly upon by a family court judge.
You may want to do a confront or a re-confront with her parents, using your evidence if you have to. You may not be able to stop the affair at this point, but you can probably get her to stop the DECEIT, which -- to my view -- is important. I had to do the same thing with my wife, as she was lying to her parents and our two adult daughters about her affair. I gave her a couple of months to come clean about it, and then finally threatened to show them my evidence if she didn't start at least telling them the TRUTH (after all, if their "love" is so "special," why not shout it from the rooftops???).
The thing is, if you are to move forward as a divorced couple, co-parenting your children, you CANNOT built that family upon a foundation of DECEIT. I told my wife "We've always told our children not to lie; how can we hold ourselves to any less of a standard?"
Are you SURE her parents are condoning a full PA, or are they buying into the "just friends" thing? My in-laws waffled back and forth several times, and seemed to believe whatever argument they heard LAST. It's understandable that they'd want to believe the best in their daughter, but sometimes confrontation and exposure has to be repeated with each incident.
