C - she likely said that to get you to back off...not because it was true. You were probably bringing up the topic of sex and she didn't want to face it or talk about it, so she said that hoping it would make you back off from the topic and take the attention away from HER and HER choice to not be sexual and passionate.
I disagree with you here, my friend. Masculinity is not about height, build, or body type. Sure, these physical attributes are the first things women notice and respond to, BUT true masculinity is about self-confidence and having a presence, for lack of a better word. Men and women sense it, by the way you carry yourself, by the way you speak and interract. I have met small men who could command a room by their very presence, and I have met huge, muscular guys who showed themselves to be followers, just in the way they carried themselves.
Masculinity and Femininity is 90% mental. Remember the woman that DQ described who weights 200 lbs, but who has the self-esteem and self-confidence to be feminine, sexy, fun, and vivaceous --> regardless of not meeting society's stereotype body? The same thing goes for men: you are what you THINK you are, to a very large degree.
I think you are (not for the first time) bang on the money with this one.
Its all about the mindset. And if I had to sum up the masculine mindset in one word it would be penetrating. Penetrating of fear, anxiety, uncertainty, evasion, obstruction, and female moodiness and temper.
In fact LuckyGirl hit on this very point when she referred in one of her earlier posts to how a man should "mentally bulldoze through" his woman's excuses. While I would substitute for bulldozer, depending on the precise problem, a scalpel, chisel, plough, even sword, she expressed very well what the feminine needs from the masculine.
Bagheera understands very well that he has to lead his marriage. That doesn't mean his wife is passive, or that he does all the work. But it does mean he sets the tone and structure of the marriage, within which his wife can safely express her own sexual self.
The masculine does not wait around for approval, it just gets on with things, pushing relentlessly through time, making the very best of what nature has given him, and accepting and being grateful for the problems challenges that life continually throws his way.
A man that understands this and lives it, and does not recoil or lean on others, will have within him the "presence" Bagheera refers to. Because he accepts what a man's life is about, and is therefore fully "present" in it.
The lesson I learned in my own marriage, was not to let my purpose in life get derailed by sexual problems - at one point I pretty much ran out of fuel altogether. A man must not expect his woman to "fuel" him. In fact, its the other way round - accomplishing things in the outside world gives him confidence and energy to bring home and fuel the relationship.
Cinco, carry on working on yourself, especially your thinking and your purpose (work, music etc).
I just thought I would end by giving a link to one of my favourite examples of "presence".
you are what you THINK you are, to a very large degree.
I do for, the most part, have a pretty good self image. When I see myself in the mirror or in photos I often question if that is really me. I see the image and I say to myself, "Wow am I really that thin?" It's not the way I perceive myself.
I do still need to work on myself as S&A says, and I am doing that. Will this make a difference in whether Mrs. Cinco will find me more attractive? I really don't care, it's her loss if she doesn't.
In fact LuckyGirl hit on this very point when she referred in one of her earlier posts to how a man should "mentally bulldoze through" his woman's excuses....
Bagheera understands very well that he has to lead his marriage. That doesn't mean his wife is passive, or that he does all the work. But it does mean he sets the tone and structure of the marriage, within which his wife can safely express her own sexual self.
In response to something I wrote yesterday:
Originally Posted By: Bagheera
In my own case, it is I who MUST lead the relationship, and lead the sexual relationship in particular. My wife doesn't want to lead, doesn't want to take charge in the bedroom, and rarely initiates intimacy on her own -- and I understand why and accept that now. I am the "Keeper of the Flame" for us, I judge when it's a good night for a "fire," and if I've done things correctly, she "ignites" wonderfully. Mrs. B responds to my lead deliciously, but it is my passion which feeds her own. Taking the lead requires confidence on my part, knowing that I can occasionally reach out and 'take' the woman that I want and that she'll melt in my arms when I do: and even a year now after we began adopting this mode-of-operation, that confidence still falters from time to time, but I pick up and carry on.
I may "understand very well" but I don't always -execute- very well --> today is one of those 'faltering' days, apparently.
Ever since my Navy days, we've had problems with send-off's and reunions when I have to travel. On the send-off, my wife's head is so full of all the stuff that she's going to have to take care of alone while I'm gone (or get to enjoy while I'm gone) that it's as if I've already departed a day or two before I actually do, and any intimacy suffers. Reunions have always been terrible -- I'm dying for a physical reconnection (and the emotional reconnection that goes with it), while my wife always takes time to shift out of 'single-mom mode' and reconnect emotionally as a wife again, delaying the physical reconnection. As a result of having this send-off/reunion trouble cycle repeated many times over, I tend to develop "trip anxiety," where I start to tense up and dread the day / night before a trip, and then particularly dread the first couple of days / nights after a reunion. And, as you could have guessed, this 'trip anxiety' reeks havoc my confidence and our sexual dynamic as a couple.
Tomorrow I fly out of town for a week-long conference, so where is that strong, masculine man my wife wants from me? Brooding and sulking like a little-boy because his wife made plans for herself for this evening and relegated any love-making that was going to happen pre-trip to this morning --> which I vetoed because she didn't wake up feeling very well today, and she would not have been very responsive; there, but not really there with me. It just all smacked too much of "the husband's going away so I'd better make love to him" chore-sex, and I refuse to go there any more.
So once again, I'll be loading myself into a cab at my door in a pissy mood, and then tensing up again during the plane flight home. And I can follow the chain of trips over 20 years back to the time when I would come home from MONTHS of being underwater on board a submarine, get to watch wives and girlfriends literally throwing themselves at their men as they come off the gangway, while my own wife would barely tolerate a hug and I would sleep on the couch for that first night or two.
Here's one old dynamic that needs to friggin' change -- I hate it.
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
I always feel like I'm highjacking your thread. I hope you don't mind. I always love it when you're around. I mostly lurk myself these days as well. It's not because I don't want to speak. It's more because I feel pretty well in despair about my Marraige. My H doesn't want to come home and he doesn't want to see me. And he doesn't want to call me. In fact he never does. I have been the only one to call him since he left.
I've gone dark for 1 to 2 weeks at a time. And when I call him, I might call him every day for a week and then go dark again. He just keeps getting worse. the last time I talked to him he was sick; he has a parasite. But it's not from sex. It's from drinking water at the campground where he lives.
the sexual issue that I need you to know about is this: (well, you know the most of my story, right)
I went online a few weeks ago to a Web site that he was once a member of. Apparantly, he never unsubscribed from this site. It was a site for men to meet women for sex and visa versa.
There were two emails in there from him, for 2006. Mind you, we were still married. The note said to this woman, who looked to be in her 20s and he's in his 50s. He said, "Let's bypass the bullsh** and just get naked."
Well you can imagine that knocked me for loop. I can't imagine him ever coming home. Any suggestions?
Well you can imagine that knocked me for loop. I can't imagine him ever coming home. Any suggestions?
At this point, build a completely indepedent life for YOURSELF, by yourself. Knowing your history, you deserve better for yourself than this guy, Poet, yet you keep clinging to him, and trying to 'rescue' him from his own follies and irresponsible actions. Let him go, and focus on you for a change.
I honestly think that it was a mistake for you to return to the house, and move out of the apartment close to your job. From there, you could have easily 'gone dark' for the MONTHS (not 2 weeks) that I think it would take for him to realize what he left behind when he left you.
This is nothing new -- you've been advised this before, by much, MUCH more experienced DBer's than I. However, I haven't read DB and DR, my marriage never got to the point of divorce or legal separation (only an informal separation for 6 months). Neither myself nor my wife have wandered outside of our marriage. I generally avoid offereing ANY advice in those area, because I don't know what I'm talking about. So this is just my $0.02, and not much more.
Best of luck to you,
Bagheera
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
Mrs. B comes through for us (both) right under the wire.
At 1:00 AM (with me getting up at 5:30 AM to go catch my flight), she finishes her preparations for Sunday, finds me, and nearly drags me up the stairs to the bedroom. Not in a "I'm horny for you now" sort of fashion, but a somewhat irritated "I hate this lousy trip dynamic too --> and don't want it to happen again" fashion. At that point, I really wasn't much in the mood myself, but I figured I had better take the olive branch when it was offered, and respond to her effort to make ammends before I departed. Both of us were tired, both of us had trouble relaxing and getting into it, but the physical and emotional bonding 'session' did us both some good, regardless.
I'm now destinated, checked in to the hotel, and ready for a nap...
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
My return home this weekend landed us squarely in the ditch beside my so-called 'bumpy road,' and currently stuck deep in the mud.
While the past year and a half of concerted marriage recovery efforts have yielded positive results in several areas, it has failed to improve the one key area for me: my wife's desire for physical touch and physical intimacy (i.e. sex) with me. During an honest conversation on Saturday, she revealed that her basic sexual desire is still pretty much what it has been during the most strained periods of our marriage --> about twice a month, give or take a week or two. Sex for her remains completely optional, and is something that she could live without happily. Her desire for other forms of physical touch also remains about the same --> a quick hug & kiss in the morning, a quick hug & kiss in the evening when we meet up again after work, and about 5 minutes of spooning before going to sleep. She derives no real pleasure for herself out of touching me, beyond knowing that -I- enjoy it. She does not like to kiss passionately or 'make out' EVER. She will not flirt or try to be sexually provocative (either publicly or privately) EVER. She rarely displays affection openly (particularly in public) and generally stays in -business- mode or -mommy- mode at all times --> I would fall over in shock if I ever got an affectionate note, text-message, or phone call from her during the day, for example.
During the last year and a half, she has worked very hard to awaken her sexuality (by herself and with me), and make herself sexually available to me --> even if her initial reaction might be negative. Sometimes this has worked: given the opportunity to ignite a spark, I can sometimes do so. Other times the encounter has fallen flat on its face. And often her response is lukewarm, and primarily for my benefit rather than her own. However, pretty much all of it has been a very FORCED effort on her part to be someone who she just naturally is not.
Is it really fair of me to ask her to change her basic nature like this?
I don't think that it is anymore. She's given it an honest try, and nothing's changing.
The bad news is that the lack of an active, affectionate, physical relationship is a deal breaker for me. I tried to be happy with her level of affection and physicality for 23 years, and I was miserable. Then she tried to meet my needs for the past 1.5 years and while perhaps not miserable, she's certainly felt stressed. In all of that time we managed to find a tiny sliver of overlapping 'grey area,' where we both could exist and be satisfied with the compromise, for about 2 months (last January & February). Then she started working full-time again for the first time in 17 years (thank you, economy), and we lost our 'compromise zone' and we are now back to the see-saw struggle again.
I'm honestly beginning to doubt whether or not it's worth the continuing struggle. Part of me is saying that I'm not being fair in asking her to change herself, and that I should either accept her as she is, or move on. The other part of me that loves this woman dearly wants to continue to find --> some way <-- of making it work: I have never been a quitter. IF I ask anyone to change, it ought to be myself, which would mean learning to live with a low-desire (LD) wife and be happy with the other positive aspects of our relationship. However, the intense, passionate part of my personality rebels *strongly* at just the thought. Barring an accident in which I lose both testicles, I can't see that happening. Which brings me back around the circle to:
So, if you aren't willing to change YOUR basic nature, how can you ask her to change hers?
So yeah....we're stuck.
Bagheera
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
It must be lonely to be you. As someone who looks up to you, and reads and re-reads your posts as gospel, it is tough for me to try and be of help to you. The best I can do is offer encouragement.
In my own experience, I go from feeling as hopeless as your post portrays, to feeling overjoyed at *knowing* that things are going to improve for us, and back down and back up... I find that going back up requires that *I* take the initiative to reach deep within, sink my claws into the part of my self that is an undying romantic who loves love, brush myself off, remember all the great things about the man I love most, and try, try again.
I hope that your post is a sign that you are in a temporary dip, and that you're not giving up. If anyone can beat the odds, it is you and your W. There must be some shred of unchartered territory left. Some idea that you haven't tried? Or, perhaps you can revisit something that has worked well in the past, such as DQ's "kiss campaign"?
You've been a beacon for many of us. I hope there is some way that we can reciprocate.
OH Baggy...this is sad news. But of course, I guess it is not really "news" since you have been dealing with this same issue for over 20 years....
I want to ask, if this is an easy question, (maybe it isn't?), what does Mrs. Bagheera say/think about the "dealbreaker" part of this?
For instance, she has tried, very hard, but isn't really making much progress in her own desire level for more intimacy increasing. So...is it a dealbreaker to HER too? Does she want to be left alone to just be who she is, now that she's really tried very hard and knows that effort won't yield much more desire? Is she willing to feel like you are behind her with a whip for the rest of your lives (I remember you said she described her feelings that way at one point)?
And the other question, I guess she must know that this is a deal breaker for you, from previous conversations you must have had....does this frighten her? Does it make her not want to tell you how she really feels, for fear that you will leave?
It seems that in most of the SSM stories I've come across, including my own, the person with less passion and desire is "just fine" in the relationship, as long as they aren't pressured for more sex. If they aren't pressured, then they are perfectly happy and wouldn't ever leave. But the other partner is miserable. Would you say that describes you guys?
Baggy - I'm just about to cry thinking of what you are saying about your sitch, after such a long and noble fight, and so many "up" periods along the way, I was very sure that things were changing for the better....but on the other hand, in a strange way, I am happy for Mrs. Baggy to be able to be honest with you. I think some wives in her shoes would simply claim that their desire for intimacy had increased, all the while, the husband would *know* it still wasn't what he was seeking...and she would just be trying to bluff her way through it. At least, Mrs. Baggy has the courage to be authentic and tell you her truth. Sad as that is to your marriage.
