WAW - Very confused and devestated - pt 5

[MrBond]

I don't think you should concern yourself about the "friends" speech. Concentrate on the immediate issues and not what may happen. The way things are between the two of you, if you told her that you can't be friends, I don't think that you'd actually mean it and she'll pick up on that.

Just be sincere with what you want and that if she gets that "trapped" feeling again, tell her again how much you love her enough so that if she wants to leave now, the door is open for her to do so. You don't need to be together to DB or to work out a settlement. That way she can stop blaming you for "holding things up".

I gave my W that speech just this weekend and guess what? She's still here.

I think in some cases, DBing works better after you've been apart awhile. Sometimes it's hard to see the day to day changes when the person is in front of you all the time.

But you can cross that road when you get to it. Remember, no R talk from you. Let her start it if she wants, but you be the one to end it.

[confusedinpa]

CIPA,

Just wanted to check in again. I have read through your last posts and I agree with stuck. You are doing so much better than even 2 weeks ago. This is going to take still a lot of time. Remember, up until two weeks ago, you were the needy, clingy, controlling type of guy, and even though she had noticed a few changes, she was still not attracted to you. Also, you have still a lot of room to improve, so let it settle in.

If I just go by my experience, even 4 weeks after such a life-changing experience as Retrouvaille, the outcome is not clear. We are getting closer to each other, start to build a connection again, but it is still very unstable. So do not expect something like a "Boom! Everything is OK again." That will not happen. You need a lot of patience for this long process. I am very optimistic that you will get your chance.

AN

AN

Thanks for checking in and taking the time to read my posts. I know they can be long

I know I need to be patient. I've never been good at that but I know that may be the best thing I can do in my situation

Glad to her yours is progressing

Best of luck

[confusedinpa]

Just be sincere with what you want and that if she gets that "trapped" feeling again, tell her again how much you love her enough so that if she wants to leave now, the door is open for her to do so. You don't need to be together to DB or to work out a settlement. That way she can stop blaming you for "holding things up".

I gave my W that speech just this weekend and guess what? She's still here.

Well, part of the speech I had given her over the weekend is that if she leaves, I can't afford to stay in the house, and she can said that she can't afford to stay in the house, nor would she want to. I could actually afford to do it if I didn't pay her child support, but she didn't go for that as I said I would just keep the kids and she could visit.

So she had asked me to contact a real estate agent adn I told her that she can if she wants to. So tonite, she told me she did.

I reacted cooly with an "Oh. ok" Then she said what she thought we could get for the house based on the other houses selling nearby. I looked at her calmly and said "That's what I had thought".

Mentally I'm ok with selling the house as if we do get a divorce, it would be sold as part of the division anyway (she would get all the equity in the house as part of her 50%). If she gave the marriage another chance, we would want to sell it to get a fresh start (she said all the emotional abandoment started right after we moved into the house).

The she asked if I gave any more thought to custody. I said I haven't come up with anything new and asked what she thought. She told me which one of the two ideas she had presented already that she prefered. I just said "hmmmm, that's something to think about"

Then I made a comment about the show we were watching and the divorce/relationship conversation ended there.

So it looks like this divorce train is heading full speed ahead.

Ironic part of it was that early tonite, after she got home, she showed me a pair of heels that she was going to return as they were too tall. I asked her to wear them to show me. They looked really good on her and I gave her a hug and she kissed me on the lips. I thought it was going to be a promising nite. Big twist.

I didn't let it break down my wall though. I'm disappointed as I thought we would make up for missing last Thursday but I guess not.

I'm still planning on not fighting the separation, I'm just not going to help her. I will negotiate with the real estate agent to get his fees down though, as that will not help the separation, but will help our financials. I'm going to wait till next week to present what I prefer as the custody agreement, assuming I hear from my lawyer then.

I'm not as optimistic as everyone else is relative to relationship. This is where we are going to really see if her actions are going start matching a WAW.

Either way, I don't feel emotionally differenet that I did yesterday. I am still optimistic of the changes I made in me for me. I am disappointed about the likely end of my marriage and what it will do to our family. I'm sad for that, but I know that I will survive and thrive for me and my 2 boys.

That was a tough blow to my wall.....

[MrBond]

The emotional wrecking ball will happen all throughout this situation. You just need to keep looking out for yourself.

Let me put it to you this way. Just today my W apologized for being short with me today for no apparent reason. This is the first time she has EVER apologized to me for anything in over a year. It's taken me a very long time to get here, but you learn to take it day to day.

Stop rethinking about last week Thursday. That ship has sailed and it isn't in her mind so it shouldn't be in yours.

Imagine you are her. You want to leave your M, what are you thinking and what would you do? Have you thought about what you want out of a custody? I am still pushing for the physical separation outside the home to let her see what it feels like. If you decide to do that, you need to tell her to leave the home because if she wants to give it up, she can go. A little bit of tough love I think is in order.

I can see from her point of view it's getting to where she's getting ready to move on to the next phase of mentally moving away from you. Go two steps ahead of her and make her feel it.

She's going to be surprised, shocked and angry, but hey, it's what she wants right? You're just giving it to her but on YOUR timetable and not hers. Sometimes they need something like that to shake them up.

Over this weekend, my W was accusing me for something and I jiu-jitsued it into a talk about what she was going through and laid it all on the line. I held her to her ethics and morals and told her that she wasn't like this before. I even confronted her about the OM and how she was deluding herself that it wasn't an A. She sat and listened as I went on for a good 30 minutes. At the end she actually THANKED ME for talking to her.

I stood my ground, told her everything I've learned about us and used the techniques I've learned here. And I think that was her wake up call.

Sometimes you need to show them your confidence and assertiveness to get snapped back into reality. In other words, act like the man...not an @$$, but a man who is to be respected.

Maybe just cut back on being so accommodating to her.

[confusedinpa]

Stuck,

I wish I would have read your post about 5 minutes ago. My wife had gone up to bed after her little "real estate agent" bomb. That's when I wound up hoping onto the computer.

She just came back down about 5 minutes ago asking if we could move a TV into the spare bedroom so she could watch TV while she slept. I told her that there wasn't a cable box in there so it wouldn't work. Then I offered to let her sleep in our room and I'll stay in the family room. She said she didn't want to kick me out of our room. I almost said, but kicking out our marriage is ok?, but I didn't.

She seemed down/sad so I went over and hugged her. I know it was a bad move, but hey, I'm only an orange belt. I still love her and felt bad that she was sad. I did blow it when I kissed her on the neck. She said don't. Oh well, guess I'm back to a yellow belt.

Anyway, she wound up saying that she was down as she wanted to go out with her girl friend tonite, but it didn't work out. I tried to be compassionate and acknowledge and validate.

Then she said about this whole situation was bad. I acknowledged and validated. I backslid into problem solving mode by suggesting that she could watch TV in the family room then. She said she didn't want to be with me. I told her I was about to go to bed anyway. Again she declined and moped back to the spare bedroom.

Part of me wants to think this was part of my 180 as in the past when she felt that way, I would just say oh and basically not support her emotionally. The other part of me knows I had a backslide. I just felt so bad for how she was sad that I wanted to comfort and "solve" her problem. What a delicate balance this is....

Oh well, I will live to fight another day.

[confusedinpa]

Imagine you are her. You want to leave your M, what are you thinking and what would you do? Have you thought about what you want out of a custody? I am still pushing for the physical separation outside the home to let her see what it feels like. If you decide to do that, you need to tell her to leave the home because if she wants to give it up, she can go. A little bit of tough love I think is in order.

I can see from her point of view it's getting to where she's getting ready to move on to the next phase of mentally moving away from you. Go two steps ahead of her and make her feel it.

She's going to be surprised, shocked and angry, but hey, it's what she wants right? You're just giving it to her but on YOUR timetable and not hers. Sometimes they need something like that to shake them up.

I know that you are right with regards to the separation. The problem I have is what I feel is the best for the kids would be for me to move out so they would at least have the stability of the house - she would never go for not have at least 50% custody. I will, for the best of the kids, tell her that she can have primary physical custody - they stay with her the majority of the time.

I would want to be able to visit up to 3 nites a week, have the kids for up to 3 weekends/month and go out as a family 1 nite per week. I would want to be able to have them for 2 weeks/year for vacation. I also would want to have them on Father's day and on my B'day. I would want to be able to visit on their B'day's and if there is a B'day party that is not on their B'day. I would want them for Thanksgiving and share X-mas day as a family. I would also want to be notified of all extra-curicular activities (i.e. soccer, baseball) that they are or could participate in so I can decide to have them sign up as well as see them in the games.

Essentially, that would give me an opportunity to see them almost 5 days/week on average without having them move back and forth between houses. In my mind, it would be a burden/additional stress on the kids to move back and forth. Also, my job schedule doesn't allow me to drop off/pick up both kids. I'm not sure if she will fight me on these as she keeps saying even though she wants a divorce, she wants me to be heavily involved in the kids life. I would actually be ok with just seeing them 3 or 4 days/week, but in a negotiations, you have to start somewhere there are things to give up.

I know me moving out won't be as big of a shock to her as if she moved out, but I don't want my kids to go through that type of shock. I'm also tempted to go visit an out of town friend this weekend just to give us a break from each other - what do you think of that idea? I could actually take the kids with me if necessary as my buddy is married with 3 kids as well, but their kids are older than my kids so I don't think it will be that much fun for them. So if I don't take them, it will also take me away from my kids, but they have experienced that whenever I travel on business (I go overseas about 1 week out of every 10 - I'm delaying a trip this time because of my situation).

That's another reason why I'm not as gun ho on a separation, as we have had time apart and when she dropped the bomb on me, she said the last week I had traveled was like a vacation for her.

Oh well, I know I'm going to have to make a tough decision very soon. I do have my therapy appointment tomorrow and I'm going out with my buddies tomorrow nite so that should be a good break from it all.

[confusedinpa]

My other thought, following the stray cat theory, is to help her setup the spare bedroom so it is more comfortable for her. Right now it's really cramped as the crib is in there. I could take the crib out this weekend and move a TV in there with a digital reciever box so she can get over the air TV as well as hooking up a DVD player so she can watch videos.

Or is that too accomodating?

[MrBond]

Way too accommodating. Let her feel it. I wouldn't even acknowledge her really. Just say yes or no and that's it. She doesn't want to talk to you, then don't. She's pushing your buttons again to feel something...anything. Don't encourage it.

Remember, it goes back to telling her that you are not the one who makes her happy or unhappy. It's all in her head.

Also, DO NOT move out of the home. Have her do it. It's a psychological thing. She wants out of everything the two of you had built together. So let her feel on her own even if it is temporary.

If she's already moping around and saying that she doesn't want you around, then all you're doing is accommodating her. Don't do her any favors by making her comfortable.

If you can swing it, have the kids stay in the house with you if you're worried about stability. You can do it. I learned how to raise my kids alone and I became a much stronger father. Strong enough that when I told my W that she was free to leave, I also told her that we (me and the kids) didn't need her anymore and that I had learned to be a single parent. That kind of through her for a loop. You'll have to sacrifice alot, but in the end it would get you much closer to your kids than you ever thought possible. And right now they need the 'right' parent to stay with them. The one that you want them to model themselves after in the future. The one that fights for their M and not the one that can't 'get over' her anger.

Stop saying that you 'feel bad for her'. She feels bad, so what? Does that affect you? Not in the least. What I said about tipping points, you can see how she get enough strength to get through each stage on her own all the way out the door. Cut her off by making the decisions. She can't argue with you because after all, it is what she wants isn't it?

[confusedinpa]

Also, DO NOT move out of the home. Have her do it. It's a psychological thing. She wants out of everything the two of you had built together. So let her feel on her own even if it is temporary.

If she's already moping around and saying that she doesn't want you around, then all you're doing is accommodating her. Don't do her any favors by making her comfortable.

If you can swing it, have the kids stay in the house with you if you're worried about stability. You can do it. I learned how to raise my kids alone and I became a much stronger father. Strong enough that when I told my W that she was free to leave, I also told her that we (me and the kids) didn't need her anymore and that I had learned to be a single parent. That kind of through her for a loop. You'll have to sacrifice alot, but in the end it would get you much closer to your kids than you ever thought possible. And right now they need the 'right' parent to stay with them. The one that you want them to model themselves after in the future. The one that fights for their M and not the one that can't 'get over' her anger.

I would love to just have the kids stay with me and let her leave. I brought that up a couple of weeks ago and she had gotten extremely mad/angry and said that was so selfish of me. So that's probably the only reason why she's still here - because she is waiting for a custody agreement where she can take the kids at least 1/2 the time. My lawyer told me that if I go to court, that would be minimum that she would get - it would be extremely hard for me to get 100%.

I don't want the kids to have to move back and forth and get destabilized through this crazy situation. So even though I know it's not the ideal "DB" move, me moving would be the third best thing for the kids (the best woudld be we would stay together, second would be if I kept them and she moved out).

That's an interesting point of tipping points and her getting strenght/comfort from me to move through each stage. I'm really going to have to think and keep my eyes open to that one.

[MrBond]

You just summed it up in your first sentence. "She said that was so selfish of me". Oh please. And her asking for divorce is not her being selfish to you?

After you tell her that she should leave since you obviously bring her so much unhappiness, tell her that all you're doing is giving her what SHE wants. She has nothing to get mad at. She doesn't want the house, she doesn't want you. She doesn't want the M. So what's the big deal? You're giving her everything she asked for.

I would recommend something drastic like that. She will get mad, but again, she can't blame you because once she sits and thinks about it, it is what she said she wants.

When it gets to that point, you tell her that there's only so many put downs you are going to stand their and take from her (which is true) and that you have been nothing but kind and compassionate to her.

If she refuses to leave, then you need to set a firm boundary and tell her that she must respect you and YOUR boundaries. That you will not be constantly blamed for things you did in the past and that she should look inwards and see how much she hates herself and what has happened in her past (such as her father). Say that she cannot threaten you anymore about C or anything else as you will not be 'controlled' by her any more. She will deny that she has been, but tell her she has.

If she expects you to respect her wishes, then she must respect yours. I think its time to step it up a notch so that she starts respecting you again. And that's what it comes down to. RESPECT.

She can't keep getting mad at you and expect you not to have any feelings. You're human and its about time she treated you as such. Our WAWs enjoy belittling us or seeing us as less than human so that it's much easier for them to leave and they feel better about themselves. Show her your 'man' side. Or rather, the new man you are. The one who is compassionate and listens to her needs, yet will not tolerate being stepped on and will not compromise on his convictions and beliefs.