Just keep swimming...PH #5

[JDOllie]

Pearl,
That is interesting - I have a couple of thoughts:

1. Men just don't instinctively "get" stuff like women do, and do not read minds
2. xBF may simply feel like a complete idiot, not deserving of your grace and beauty, and be humbled beyond all words, and think that he doesn't stand a chance.

Since he has made at least a minimal effort to tell you about OW - it may simply be semantics. So, check his email! Why wonder about it?

To me, it has been a glorious week. I told W EXACTLY what I expected, and what would happen if she chose affair/divorce. I feel liberated. When I go and file divorce Friday, I will never look back, mostly because W CLEARLY knows what she needs to do. Obviously, it is always her choice, and I won't attempt to force her one way or another, but now, there will be no questions, no wondering "what if", and so on.

[pearlharbr]

Thanks for your input JD. I know I shouldn't expect him to be a mind reader, but I feel justified expecting him to make an effort, i.e. DO SOMETHING and not just talk about it.

And for the record, he is a complete idiot and doesn't deserve me!

I do wonder if I should just lay it all out for him and see what happens. The wondering "what if" is exactly what I want to avoid. I want to walk away and never be tempted to look back.

Waiting for Gucci's comments.

[JDOllie]

I also wondered about this, actually. I think we're different in that I was slightly afraid to lay it out because I was fearful of a negative answer.

But, then I grew a pair, and laid it out. On Friday, if she doesn't give me dissolution paperwork, or confirm she has ended her affair, I file divorce. I feel completely clear because she knows exactly what she's walking into.

Knowing what I know of you - I think that you should lay it out. You are a "nice guy" - and I believe it will ease your conscience - regardless whether you should have to or not.

I also remember in the early days with W - asking her what the heck she WANTED, and she would sniff and say, "Well, if you don't know, then it doesn't matter."

ARRHGHGHGHGHGHGH! Again, I don't know your xBF, and I don't know if he even deserves another chance, so I'm speaking from a neutral man standpoint.

[ChooseLove]

Hi, I'm new to the forum, been reading a bit. I just wanted to jump in because something about your thread really touches me. My husband and I have been through some similar throughout our relationship and are both really glad we've stuck it out and grown together. We both know if we'd chosen to grow apart at any point we would have been fine too, which is important, so I don't have expectations for anyone elses sitch. Making choices you can feel right about are generally best imho, regardless of others. You are the one you have to sleep with every night after all, at least that's how I think about my choices.

It sounds like you may be working through allowing yourself to be indignant or angry, in the stages of grief, working through healing and connecting to you, which isn't going to a place of connecting with him right now as you want to feel safe and figure out what you need? Neither good/bad, just an observation. My husband and I had to grieve what was (or we thought was) and to be angry about what didn't meet our needs, to be able to enjoy what is and be excited about the future and find ways to meet our needs. We tried as hard as we could to be angry about actions and behaviors, the ways we chose to try to meet those needs, and not judge our character, which led us apart from ourselves and each other.
Are you wanting to be respected, cherished and appreciated and you aren't sure if he can do that? Wanting to be chased and pursued by him might perhaps give you confidence that he really means what he says? Are the actions he's taken big bold moves on his part, even if they aren't what you'd like? Is it standard for him to write 4 page love letters to you etc? He is telling you now he's trying to take ow out of his life. He's asking if that matters to you, if it makes any difference to you at all, if he means anything to you anymore. Isn't that what you wanted in order to talk to him and open some? Are you realizing that isn't enough now or are you making choices out of fear of further pain? I had to work so so hard at that, and of course I didn't always succeed, still don't. What could it mean on his part to make those attempts?

Did you see anything beautiful or to appreciate in his letter, texts and other attempts or only what you see lacking? Could only seeing what is lacking help you feel safe from the desire to connect with what touched you and might make you vulnerable to such immense overwhelming pain again? Have you shared anything you appreciate with him about his attempts, even if you don't want to get back together or feel trusting at this point? What is the fear in telling him what you need right now, more actions? Are you afraid any actions may be insincere and manipulative? Usually no one can guess what another wants or what their intent is. Would you (or have you) continue your attempts to connect with someone if you felt clearly & completely rejected? I imagine he may feel intensely rejected after his attempts to connect with you and feels nothing but contempt from you back which is painful for him to keep going back for. What support can you imagine he needs right now to grow and move forward and be a more whole person who might be able to really connect with and support you? Gottman says that the biggest indicator of marriage success or failure is contempt. It sounds like, in your mind, there may be nothing he can do for you? In our sitch, my husband will not push himself on me, out of a desire to respect my choices. He will make a few attempts and then let me know he's there when I'm ready. I have not always appreciated that, sometimes I have wanted him to fight for me, but as I look at it differently he is fighting for me whether I end up with him or not, he wants the best for me and he wants me to choose it. Do you expect xbf to keep trying forever, and more elaborately, even when it seems clear to him you do not want anything to do with him, unless your furnace is broken? I honestly wouldn't have jumped up to be your repairman either if I wanted to be your partner and respected and you'd had no other real interest in contact with me. Do you want someone who is strong and stands up for respect for himself too?

He is hurting a great deal too I imagine, and I know you were/are too. I lived many days, after our bomb, where my only thought was "if I can only make it through today" literally, it was at times terrifying for both of us, but we felt better trying to support each other. He went through intense pain staying through helping me through that and knowing how much his actions had hurt me. I have great respect for him staying to face it and help me through that pain, even if he thought I may leave once I was healed. I know for my husband, each attempt to connect to me can be full of fear because my rejection is the most painful thing in the world for him, he experiences physical pain, even going to the hospital a week after the bomb due to pain, so it can be easier not to try or to tune out or run from the desire. Your xbf seems to be trying to find a path back to discuss with you what future you may be able to find together, but I suspect he won't force it on you or try to sell you on it. My husband wants me to be with him because I want to be here, not because he convinced me to be here, or I'm scared to leave, so it's possible your xbf may be thinking something like that too?

Do you want there to be a path to possibility for that or not? Have you discovered you want more or different that what he offers? If you don't want to be with him, that's obviously fine, but it seems to me a response to his attempts, even to say you aren't sure and need some space, will leave some room for possibility as you work through your feelings? The more he feels rejected, I imagine the less he will try, and the more he will distance again, which will be not enough for you to feel convinced he really loves you. If you are sure, one way or another of how you feel now, then why not be clear about that? My husband and I found the less expectations we had of how the other "should" behave, and the more we could connect to the other where we were and see each other as human and imperfect, the more we were willing to connect and come back together and find support and unconditional love (understanding that doesn't mean you will accept everything behavior wise) for each of us being who we wanted to be. Do you want a relationship based on mutual connection, acceptance, support and respect, or do you want one full of expectations, fear and shoulds? I had to make myself make that choice everyday right after our bomb, sometimes 20 times in an hour. This doesn't mean I think you should choose him. If you can't forgive or trust again, then it is time to move on, for both of your best interests. When you look in your heart and push aside all the fear, do you see anything worth hanging onto or making an attempt for? Can you walk away at peace fully looking forward and open? Or will you let this close you from love as you move forward?
I don't think there are any right answers, only answers that take us closer to our own paths. My intent here was to explore and support only. I wish you the best on your journey wherever it takes you.

[Silver Fox]

Hmmmm.....

[davidswife]

I think you need a new pair of shoes!

[Tawnya]

ROFL Davids..Pearl getting a new pair of shoes..NOW that is a dangerous thing to tell her LOLOL

Tho..you can never have too many kickin shoes!!

Tawnya

[pearlharbr]

ChooseLove,

I wasn't going to respond to your post but feel I must say something.

You may have some valid points to consider but I am overwhelmed by the length and tone of your post. It is a novel and feels like a lecture.

You obviously have not been following my situation for any length of time. I find it annoying when people who don't know the background make presumptions about me.

I do not expect everyone to agree with everything I do, nor do I expect unconditional support for my choices. I do however expect someone know something about where I've been before they offer any opinions or advice.

I do believe in treading lightly when I am new to a scene to figure out how things work. I suggest you do the same.

Please do not make any further comments on my thread. I will not respond.

[pearlharbr]

I got the furnace fixed today. Found a repair guy and he cleaned the pilot, replaced a part, and for $100 I was back in the heat. Yay!

xBF texted at 4 to ask if I got it fixed. Exchanged a few messages about repair guy and what was wrong.

So I was contemplating JD's suggestion of just laying it all on the line and telling xBF what I expect to even consider giving him a second chance (OW completely gone, total transparency, financial settlement agreed on and in writing). I was also thinking about snooping in his email to see if he's still in contact with OW. Then I had a thought about testing his veracity.

I could stop by bowling league on Wednesday to see if she's there. If so, he is still lying about her and obviously not willing to do "whatever it takes" to reconcile. Plus it has the added benefit of showing his coworkers that I know what's going on so they will stop pitying me. The down side is that it shows him I'm checking up on him before I have committed to trying to save the R and I feel like it's giving up some power. At this point it is still about having the upper hand for me.

Still waiting for a response from my tactician Gucci.

[gucci loafer]

Hi Pearl....

Here is how I see things....

I believe that he has made an effort to tell you he is sorry and that he wants you back. He seemed to have made that clear...

He told you he was sorry and asked if you wanted to try again.
He told you he had lied and wouldn't lie again.
He keeps asking to come over.
He has told you that he isn't hanging out with the OW anymore.
He has asked to go back to Counseling.
He did come over and try to fix the furnace.
He did follow up to see if it got fixed.

These are all excellent signs of what many on here would give their right arm to hear from their wayward spouse.

I see no reason that you couldn't invite him over to talk.
Face to face. Clear the air.

I say to you again, that the purpose of this site is to save relationships. It looks as if you can save yours now. You have shown him you meant business. He needs to know that if it EVER happens again that it is over for good.

I don't think that you need to snoop to find out if he is lying.
If you invite him to have a talk, is when you need to gather all the information on his plans and exact relationship with the OW.
It would also be the time to see where both of you want to go with this and how you would prevent it from happening again and what would happen if it did.

You need to be careful and you need to be observant to see if his words match his actions. If you decide to try, I would recommend that you tell him you want to take it slow.

You still have the option of continuing on with what you are now doing. I don't think he is going to give up. He seems to be trying to find his way back to you, but none of us know for sure if he is trying to have his cake and eat it too. I would make sure that he tells you face to face that it is over with the OW and that he has ended it with her and will eliminate her from his life for good. I wouldn't tolerate him saying he wanted to still be her friend. That would be the deal breaker and the thing that would cause me to tell him that you aren't interested in gettting back together if he chooses that route. The choice is his.....


I think he wants you back and maybe has learned his lesson.
It is still in your control, which is what you want in these situations.

The down side is that you are putting yourself in the position of getting hurt again. I believe that the possibility of getting hurt is on the table no matter who you are in a relationship with. There are never any guarantees that we won't be hurt.