I've moved here from MLC

[stillloveshim]

Hi Kassie,
You are right about not seeing the positives and your insight into over-reacting to his disconnections is very very helpful.

Here is where I am now in my thinking and frankly, despair. My H seems to want to be a single man with as few responsibilities as possible.
A quick update: This past week, he asked me to come home, this is Thursday and give our friend that I'm staying with "his castle back" since our other friend, his wife is out of town until Tuesday. He said to stay at home and I thought this was an EXCELLENT sign.
Up until Saturday afternoon, everything was fabulous.
Saturday afternoon he came home and was just weird as I told you and you've given me great advice and insight there.

On Sunday, he was so distant to me. So, I pushed a little too hard because I let him get under my skin, huge no-no, but I did it anyway. I told him that maybe we need to move forward with the D. He needs to file. The problem we have now, or his problem anyways, my blessing oddly enough is that we can't afford to divorce. We really can't afford two households. But he said OK, if the county will take a credit card he's going to file soon and I told him to get his own insurance and to serve me at the place I'm staying. He told me today that maybe we should just take a break before we do/say something we'll regret.

The girlfriend I'm staying with....her H is very good friends with my H. As a matter of fact, they spent the afternoon playing golf together as they OFTEN do. My girlfriend's H told her that for the last month he has wanted to tell me to give up. She finally pinned him down as to why. He said that my H often says things now like "....my soon to be ex wife...." And things like that and has been for the last month or so.

I was so hopeful we were doing well and on the road to where we could create something new and wonderful, but I've been so wrong...so blind, so accomodating to him. My H has yet to have a whole weekend by himself with our S because I've jumped in to help because....I don't even have any good reasons for doing that.

It's been really really dark.
How do I stop this? I've been so so stupid and way too emotional.

What's more, my H's ex-OW from his EA is crazy and so is her ex-boyfriend. Long story short, they were contacting me--but not using their own phones or email addresses, I think. I guess they did it to mess with me and each other, not really sure. But I finally snapped last week and told H it's all too much and I am so mad he brought these crazy people into our lives. He talked to her to tell her to leave me alone and she acted innocent but agreed that if she knew of anyone who maybe bothering me, ie her ex, she would take care of it.
Shortly after, I guess she convinces my H, whom she works with, that she really hasn't been bugging me and neither has her ex, so H is questioning me again about it. I just about threw him across the room. I reminded him "These two can't get cell phone insurance because they've destroyed so many during their 2 year relationship. They leave each other stranded when they are mad. They break windows because the other locked them out of the house. They change the locks on their house and file restraining orders....etc. And in this most recent attempt to screw with each other and me one of them sends me the other's criminal record, which I REALLY want nothing to do with." He looked at me and said Yeah, they are crazy. And I mentioned, I that I've always been loyal to him. When I had to pick, I always picked him and my family. SHE on the other hand has never picked him and has been fairly shady.
This morning there was more crap involving her. I talked to him about it, calm and rational and he wanted to appease me, so is that good or bad?
I really need this girl out of my life and fortunately the contact does seem to be slowing down and she has a new boyfriend so why all the drama? Leave me alone!!
But we've been talking today because of this latest incident and dealing with a burglary of our home. (Isn't my life exciting?)

And here's another question for you: Do you think your husband REALLY wanted to leave or do you think he was confused and aware of it? Because I feel like my husband really believes he wants out. He is calling me "the future ex wife." That can't be good.

[AJM]

I have to say as I read that post from Saturday, that I think you should actually be cautiously encouraged. What I see is that he stuck to the script. He tried to find a way to be weirded out and communicate that to you. I think you should have left it alone after you asked if he was Ok. Let him go with the conversation at that point.

I read it that he's timidly working his way back to your R. Very timidly and when you open up too much, you scare him off or he gets a mixed signal or something he's hoping to pin on you. Don't let him.

I think a better way for next time would be to ask if he's Ok. Once he answers, let him take the conversation where he's going to take it. No pressure. No judgement. If it tears you up, don't let him see it, but instead be thoughtful and listen to his concerns. If you need to walk away instead of saying something you'll regret, then let him know that you'll repsect the space and you'll come back to the conversation later.

That would be a 180 for your two, right? It'll help you to get a chance to get your wits about you. It'll teach the two of you to have a conversation without killing each other. It'll give him a chance to feel safe and wanted in the relationship you two really do have. Even if it doesn't feel like you do, you do have a relationship. As Kassie mentioned, he hasn't left. That's because he doesn't want to give up yet. He just doesn't know how to reconnect.

What once came easily and naturally, now will take extreme effort. It won't be that way forever, but for now, you'll need to recognize this and revel in it.

You are strong. You could have left. You could have cut him off completely and shot arrows at him. You did not. You're trying even though the pain is excruciating. You should get a purple heart for that. You need to GAL. You need to build your own self-confidence and you need to understand what it is you want. I think that clarity will help you immensely. Both of you really, but you're the one I'm concerned about the most.

Stay in the game. Yesterday's gone, and tomorrow isn't here yet. Live in today and realize that a setback is not a bad thing - like feelings it just is. Learn from it but don't dwell on it.

AJ

[AJM]

Because I feel like my husband really believes he wants out. He is calling me "the future ex wife." That can't be good.

Wish I'd seen this a few minutes ago. That's so very much a part of the script. You shouldn't believe it. Even if he tells his friend this. Why? Because he KNOWS his friend will talk to you. It's an easy way to hurt you. Childish I know, but it really is part of the WAS playbook. Classic from what I keep seeing over and over on this board even for those relationships that work out and those that do not. This is not what he really wants, but he may not know what he really wants.

My suggestion? Don't bring up the divorce again. Don't even react to it if he brings it up.

My thought? He doesn't want out. He wants things to change.

Does he want freedom? Of course. Does he want freedom from you? I don't think so. I think he's confused alright.

I also think you need to leave him alone with son. If he calls and asks for your help, make your decision, but I think you should have something else you're doing. Don't return his calls quickly. Wait a little while. He's a grown man. He can bond with and raise his son. Get out of the way and let him. It's part of it.

My thoughts.

AJ

[2gthrButApart]

I agree 100 % with AJM

Follow AJM's advice carefully.

[stillloveshim]

AJM--
I am actually trying not to cry right now.
Thank you so so much.

I am just so confused because he says one thing, "we're not getting back together....if it wasn't for this economy this would be over now.....I haven't been married in months", you get the picture but then he's with us SO much and he doesn't have to be.

My girlfriend was telling me "When a man wants a divorce, he leaves and doesn't hang out with the woman he wants to divorce even if they have kids.....and he is with you guys every night, even on your weekends and nights to have your son. That's not normal for a man who really wants out."

I put so much hope in that because it says in DR "don't believe anything they say and only 50% of what they do." It's just so hard to figure out what 50% of what they do to believe. And what if he says something great? Very confusing.

I had another girlfriend who got divorced about a year ago. She came home and he was there. Except none of his stuff was. He took the day off and packed his things and moved them to a new apartment. He told her he wanted a divorce and didn't see her again except to do their tax work and then again to make the divorce final. So did understand that normally when someon truly wants out, it can be done quickly and with very little contact, esp. without kids.

So I asked him once after he said "It's over" why are you around so much? He said I manipulated the schedule so he had to be in order to see our S. I told him "You have him Mondays, Wednesday, every other Thursday (for family night) and every opposite weekend. And you helped me develop that schedule. You don't have to be around when it's not your night. You do get to see him a lot with this schedule." He basically told me if he did that he would be a crappy father. I said Ok, I understand. I asked him for more time away from him so I could start to get over my failing/failed marriage. He said ok.

Guess what? He is still around, just as much as ever. So what is a girl supposed to think about that?

After the most recent round of crap from this morning, I asked him for a break. He said "What does that mean?" I told him that I was upset and irked about somethings, he said he understood and even apologized. "I don't want to hurt you." I said thank you, please, let's take the next few days all of which you have S, and let me see you a lot less. Let's cut back on the contact COMPLETELY unless related to S. He agreed. I told him what my schedule would be for the next three nights, tennis tonight, yoga tomorrow and tennis practice on Wednesday. Then the rest of the week into the weekend, S is with me.
He said OK.
I just really need a breather here.
Any more advice? Or just stay the course of GAL and no longer discussing our relationship in any way?
Is this still classic WAS with a little MLC in it?

[LR1]

Still, AJM is wise. Very good advice. Hang in there! You are strong and CAN do this.

Any more advice? Or just stay the course of GAL and no longer discussing our relationship in any way?
Is this still classic WAS with a little MLC in it?

I would stick with GAL, don't discuss, sit back and recharge. You CAN do this.

[AJM]

I am just so confused because he says one thing, "we're not getting back together....if it wasn't for this economy this would be over now.....I haven't been married in months", you get the picture but then he's with us SO much and he doesn't have to be.

Not to make light of your situation, but I laughed out loud. Why? Because I've heard those same words, just about verbatim. Check out my thread - this morning she wants the two of us to take a trip and see what "..we have left (between us)" Wasn't very long ago (two weeks?) that I heard almost those exact words and that she still wants to leave.

Stop for a second. Think about what you see when you see children when they don't get their way or when they have emotions bottled up and can't get them out. See any similarities? Know what a time-out is? I think you see where I'm going with this.

Slowing down your relationship is a suggestion my MC made to me a few months back. She was right. I knew that, but couldn't figure out how to action that advice. It took until I got to a point where I had to take a break or implode before that became clear. The pain has been intense. It will be for you as long as you let him get to you personally. That sounds contrite as in, "why don't you just stop loving him?" but that's not what I mean. I mean that you'll have to step back and see this as some of us see it.

I see him trying to find a way to connect with you, but unable to figure it out. I see it giving him feedback with such force, he gets confused. I see it as the two of you colliding with your emotions because what once was easy for the two of you is no longer easy. Conversation is strained. Tense. Double meanins are all over the place. You can do nothing right (it seems). [bold]He's hyper-aware of every little thing you do. [/bold] Sound familiar?

At some point I think I'll sit down and write out the various things that happen in the script...in order as they seem to happen. I'll wait and see how my marriage turns out, but I keep pretty good notes.

Stop and take a breath. Collect your thoughts. Ask yourself about progress. On a scale of 1 to 5 where is your relationship compared to where it was when you started this journey? Check your journal. Have you been hitting your goals? If not, why not?

I think doing that, and NOT contacting H for a few days would be in your best interest. It'll confuse him too He'll wonder why you are not contacting him. Let him wonder. That's a good thing.

Remember this: Things will change. They may change for the better. They may change for the worse. But they will change. You need to focus on you and get off his emotional roller coaster (that's hard to do believe me; I still struggle with it but it's worth the effort). You need to focus on slowing things down. You can best slow things down by reducing contact. Let him have son alone. Let him struggle alone. Let him see what he's missing. Go out and have a good time on your own.

Remember not dating

Take this time for you. You'll need it because there's more curves ahead. But you can do it and we'll be here to help.

AJ

[stillloveshim]

AJ
It's so weird to be happy someone else knows my hell and pain, but I am so grateful for you and your insight.
My H talks about going out of town with me too, for a gambling trip. (I know that sounds horrible, but we love blackjack and never drop the mortgage money at the casino, only what we can afford to lose, which isn't too much right now)
I do have a child who will be three soon and yes, he does pull the pouting crap now. Makes me crazy and sometimes it's cute, but not often and it's never cute in a grown man.
On a scale of 1 to 5, at Christmas I would say we were a -2. He was very much into his EA and she really was just using him to have her ego stroked after her boyfriend dumped her in great embarassing fashion. She would NEVER hang out with him, but H thought it was because he was married and he was really pushing to get out then. I may be the only person in the world grateful for her debt and this economy because that is the only thing that stopped him at that time.
Since then she has taken up with another guy who I'm told is plastered all over her desk and social web site pages.
I think he may be a little heartbroken over this but he denies the EA and says he is really really over her because there was never anything there. Yet he has issues with her and her crazy ex-boyfriend who has contacted me in the attempts to start fights or get me to start them. I tell H to let them know to leave me alone as I've promised him I have no desire to speak with ex OW from his EA. (She called me to apologize after he boyfriend went to their work place and dumped her in front of everyone for her outside of work contact with a married man. She was telling the boyfriend that me and H were happily married and they were just friends. In actuality, when the ex-boyfriend called me to let me know about this "friendship" I let him know that H had moved out and we were separated. I didn't know he was unaware of that. Oh well.) So I stopped contacting her, but I think she is afraid of me and wanted to check in with me. I blocked her number from my cell, so she started emailing me instead. So I could go on but I have no will--so long story short, H is having a hard time deciding who to believe. Is this girl really that crazy and her ex-boyfriend....are they really harassing me? Or am I making it up? I told him today, I am shocked at your gaul. I have always been loyal to you and this person has never picked you. He says he wants to trust me and he does trust me more. Whatever. For now, I'm going just deal with that and that's why I needed some space.
I told him today I need a break. He has our son for the next three nights and I'll see him when he drops S off with me each evening. (H has a job that gets him up very very early so S can't stay with him during the week.)
Last Saturday morning when he left for golf, I would have said we were a 3 and half which I was very very happy with. Then Saturday afternoon, he came home an absolute weirdo.
I think what happened is that he found out about a co-worker's pool party and he wanted to go. I have issues with this because some of his co-workers are incredibly young, in their early 20's. I've told him and his good friend that also works with him that they look like the creepy old guys. But I think this is part of his MLC, he wanted to go. And don't get me wrong, it wasn't just my H, his friend and 20 something year old women. There were plently of people there that are more their age, but the party was at one of the younger person's apartment complex pool.
So that kind of behavior frustrates me. But I am learning to let him do his thing and try to say nothing. I was hopeful a few weekends ago when he texted me all night about "how lame this town is." He texted me from home at 1:00am complaining about being "too old for this bleep." I was very encouraged then.
But you are absolutely right, SLOW THIS TRAIN DOWN. That is going to be my new focus. I am going to go as dark as I can this week, which is difficult with a small child between us. And then "lighten up" sometime next week. But that's a great idea and I feel so much better just knowing I have some direction here.
AJM, please stay with me and keep me in line.
I've made the most wonderful people here and I have no idea what any of you look or sound like. It's crazy.
And where can I find your thread?

[kassie]

AJ,

Could you take a look at my thread if you have the time -I am currently looking for male feedback on my H. WAH2 in sep now what?

SLH'

I would agree with AJ, I have heard the same from my H for three years. I actually added it up approx, 300 times I have heard the word D. I do believe that when a man wants out he goes. NO turning back. My H has walked out on previous R without a single second thought or turn around. With me, he keeps saying it, he has left and keeps coming back. Today he told me that the fact he keeps coming back and trying to work things out must tell me how he feels. I really do get that but there is more to a R than just not really leaving it. I do think that there reasons to be cautiously optimistic. I really don't read any signs that he wants to leave or be without you for whatever reason. I would ask you to be honest with yourself about what you want so you can be clearer with him when the time comes. You can't judge everything by every little sign. Keep up DBing, have hope, believe in the best outcome and look forward. Post your doubts here for support and venting. We will not let you down.

[stillloveshim]

Good Morning Kassie,
I agree with AJ too.
I've come to realize while reading, reading, reading everything I can get my hands on about fighting for your marriage that some of my assesments of me and my role in the demise of my marriage were close, but wrong.
I was a Martyr. He would ask to get out with the guys for golf, play in a poker tournament, go work out on Sunday after noon while S was napping or whatever and I would say yes. I would be completely agreeable and perky because at that moment, I didn't to be controlling or "that wife", the one who doesn't let her husband have any fun. Then later, when he was gone, I would start to fume, maybe because I had wanted to do something as a family, or I wanted to leave S with H so I could hit the mall without the stress of a small child with me, or I just missed H. He would come home and get the silent treatment or a snippy wife. I would also start calling and texting him "What do you want to do later?" or "When will you be back?"
I think back to this now and just cringe.
My very good girlfriend (I call her my Partner in the War to Save My Marriage)said "Maybe he is hanging around to see what you do, see if you go back to who you were, the nag, the martyr. Because if you do, he will never come home. I think you both disliked that woman and agree she needs to stay away forever."
I see how acting as I did drove him into an EA. Please understand, I'm not happy about the EA at all, but I'm trying to be honest and real about the situation, trying to understand how humans work, and I'm trying to look at this through someone else's eyes, other than my own.

So Kassie, your H said it all the time too? Not just necessarily using the D word, but things like "I'm not married, haven't been in months.....We're not getting back together....if it weren't for the economy this would be done by now." A long long time ago, when he thought he stood a chance with the OW from his EA, he told me "I wish you would meet someone so you'll be taken care of and I don't have to worry about you." That might have been the crappiest of the crappy comments.
If I push, and I have been lately which I know is stupid stupid stupid, he'll say things like "I'll file soon....I'll get the paper work in order." So I'm hoping there is no filing this week, or the next or at anytime. In our county it's just less than $500 to file, so that helps slow down the process of him filing--I hope.
He constantly says he doesn't want to hurt me, he doesn't want to make this any harder than it has to be....and when I ask what that means he either avoids the question or he says something like "Just leave it alone....it's all going to work out." And then I do leave it alone. I've never pushed after that statement which he's made three times probably.
I keep telling myself "Don't believe anything he says and only 50% of what he does."
My girlfriend says I have a new mantra for the rest of this battle: I want to be happy, not right. The focus is to bring H back. To do that, I have to think before I speak, thing before I do. I CAN and WILL win each battle and then the war.
I do have a great support system.
Today will be the first day of my battle.