I didn't make the 9:30 deadline, but I believe you will know what to say when you say it. Her tears are a good sign. You both need to start talking about these feelings you both have. Work as a team. Let us know how it goes.
Missed the deadline too. I prefer the idea of showing her the article and then discussing. When having a discussion talk only about yourself. Do not talk about what she does. That is accusatory and makes the other person defensive. That leads to arguing.
I know I am waaaayyyy late. I just wanted to say that I am rooting for you. I know you aren't going out of your way to upset her but she needs to know the things that upset you and then care enough to do something different. I am rooting for you.
kat
Me-53(and learning!) S24, S21, D18, D17 Just keep swimming, Just keep swimming. Dory
This would be a good opportunity to bring up Retrouvaille. Because the experience you just had points up the truth -- the relationship will not get better by burying the problem under the rug. You and she need to work together to heal. You don't really know what goes on at Retrouvaille, but the people who have gone swear by it. And it helps with communication, which is something you could use improvement in. That should be all you need to say. The relationship is worth the investment of one weekend. The worse that could happen is that nothing will change.
WOW! You go Hope! I think you will finally be getting some answers. More importantly I think your 'wife' will begin to respect you again when she sees the days of Mr Doormat are over.
Don't know where to start. First, didn't get to have the talk yesterday morning so I had read all your comments before we talked. W was a house cleaning fool yesterday and S16 was around a lot. But around 8:30, S16 went to a friends house and then I started.
It all pretty much runs together so I'm just going to post what I talked about and what she talked about in no particular order. And this isn't the exact words. I was very careful to not use "I" much. I never raised my voice. I was very careful to not accuse her of anything although I know I failed a couple of times on that and (in a tip of my hat to Sara) she got defensive. When that happened I immediately diffused it by retreating a little and validating what she said.
Me: It's hard for me to to not be concerned when you say things like you did last night because this limbo I feel like I'm living in makes it hard to trust.
Me: It's hard when I still haven't heard you say to me 'I want to try'.
W: I thought that's what I was doing.
Me: I can see you trying, but still not having heard you say it makes it difficult for me.
W: I am trying. And just when I feel like everything is going good and we're getting past it, something like last night happens.
Me: I understand you just wanting to forget about it but I feel like that's a recipe for disaster. It's also difficult for me when I don't feel like my feelings matter or are taken into account.
W: I know you think I'm a cold hearted bi*ch, but I do care about how you feel and what this has done to you.
Me: I don't think you're a cold hearted bi*ch, but when you still haven't even said "I'm sorry" to me, it makes it hard to feel you really care about how I feel.
W: I've told you I'm sorry. (I just let that one go, if she thinks she has it wasn't going to do anything to argue the point).
Me: I know you want to just 'move on' and not talk about all this, but I feel like if we don't discuss it and don't understand how it happened I'll never feel comfortable it won't happen again. It's painful for me to talk about it also, but there are just so many things I need to know, including what my contribution was to where our marriage was that let this happen.
Me: The biggest question I have is how did you let yourself go there?
W: I don't know. I guess I was a selfish bi*ch.
The rest just runs together. W knew she was attracted to OM but didn't plan on it happening. She actually KNEW he'd had other affairs before it went PA the first time. She never thought she'd do something like that, but it got to a point where it did. I asked her if when their "friendship" started out if it was safe because she was married and he was married and so she didn't protect herself or our marriage and then if it just got to a point where she was in so deep she couldn't get out. W said that that was pretty accurate.
I then said that's what is hard for me, because how do I know it won't happen again. W said "how do any of us know"? I said "I know it won't happen with me. I'm not saying I'm a better person than you or anything like that, but I know I would never go there because I just don't put myself in those kinds of situations. I've been in a couple of situations when I've been traveling for work that I don't know if anything would have happened or not, but it could have, and I just didn't go there. There are 7 billion people in the world so to think there aren't going to be people out there that trip your trigger isn't logical. The question then becomes how are you going to protect yourself and our marriage from it happening again?" W said "I know it won't." I said "that's what scares me. A person has to know before they get into a situation like that what they'll do to protect their spouse and their marriage. If you don't know what you'll do prior to it happening, it'll happen again. I just know that I would never go there because I recognize when something's getting to a place where I don't want it to go and I remove myself from that situation." I then said "This is where openess and honesty are so important. If you'd have been open and honest with me in the beginning we could have figured out what was wrong in our marriage before it happened, not two years and a whole bunch of heartache later". She then said "it's hard for me to be open with you....it always has been". I said "I want us to be open with each other. I long for us to be open and closer and more intimate with each other". W didn't respond but she was starting to get choked up at this point.
We talked some more about how she let it happen. She said she knew where it was going after a certain amount of time, but she just never thought about the consequences. That it just got to a point where it didn't matter.
I asked her if before it happened if she was happy in our marriage? She said she thought she was, but when we moved and weren't working in the same building any more she relized she felt smothered, that we were always together and that after we moved she found some independence and liked it. I asked her if part of the attraction of OM was a statement of independence on her part. She said she thought that had something to do with it. I said to her "I understand that. One thing I think I've learned is that with my first W cheating on me that I think deep down I felt like if we were always together, you couldn't cheat on me. I think I've learned now that the one thing that scared me more than anything and what I did to try and stop it was probably one of the main things that contributed to it happening." At that point W had to wipe some tears away.
She then said she felt like her opinions didn't matter and that I dominate conversations and that made her feel like she didn't matter. I said to her "I understand how you could feel that way. I've taken a long hard look at myself since this began and I saw some things that I didn't like about myself. I know me saying 'I'm working on those things' means nothing to you and that you'll have to see those changes to believe them, but I do understand what you're saying and I am working on that."
What else? W didn't remember some things and I believe she truly doesn't remember. I did bring up EGF at one point and W got defensive. I said "I'm really doing my best to be polite around EGF, but don't expect me to ever be 'friends' with her". W said "she's my friend and she didn't have anything to do with this". I said "she may not have had anything to do with it, but I have a hard time with her and how she was encouraging you in your affair". W said "she didn't encourage me." I then quoted a couple of TM's W and EGF had exchanged and W said in a pretty snotty voice "so you read all my TM's?" I said "no I didn't read all your TM's and I haven't looked at your phone for a very long time." She said "sure sounds like you did". I just let it drop....it was a cheeseless tunnel. W said "You're not going to tell me who I can be friends with" and I said "I'm not telling you who you can be friends with, but just don't expect me to be anything more than civil with someone who was encouraging you in the destruction of our marriage." W said "she wasn't encouraging me" and that's when I brought up some of the TM's and she said what she did.
At one point I made another comment about me feeling like she doesn't really care about my feelings and what this has done to me and she said "I do know what this has done to you and I feel bad about that". I said, "I believe you do feel bad about that, but it's hard for me to think you 'get it' when there are some things that show me my feelings really just don't matter that much". W said "like what things?" I said "every time I walk in your office and see that stupid glass it's like reliving the pain all over again. It just takes me right back there". W said (in a snotty voice) "it's just a glass". I said "I know you think that, but what goes through my head when I see it is 'every time you walk in your office you get this warm feeling about OM' and that hurts me terribly." I then said "Put yourself in my shoes. Let's turn this around. If I had had an affair and my OW had given me some gift and I kept it, can you honestly tell me you'd be ok with me keeping it? Same for the undies that are so offensive to me. It just shows me that you really don't care about my feelings and how this affects me and that's why I have a hard time thinking you're really trying". She got a little defensive at the mention of those things, but I think she did get it. We'll have to see if she get's rid of the stuff or not.
We talked at some point about how do we balance the need I have for knowing where she is and what she's doing and her need for that independence. She said if she couldn't have that independence she didn't see us ever making it. I told her it wasn't going to be this way forever, but I hoped she would understand how just simple little things she does to let me know when she's going to be late or where she's going helps me a lot.
At some point, OM came up and when was the last time she'd talked to him. She said it's been a long time. I asked, like a few months? many months? W said it was before last summer, like maybe a year. Now I know it's not been a year, but I'm just going to have to act 'as if' she's telling me the truth.
At this point, I really feel he's a thing of the past and if I can work on the things that led her to the A and she can open up to me more, then we have a chance. I did mention a number of times that I didn't know if it wouldn't be me that walks in the end, but that I was going to give this everything I could and we'd see where we go.
I just kind of feel like, right now, we're at a starting point of our new marriage. Was it everything I could have hoped for? No. But it was pretty darn good in my book. I know what her main beef's were that led to the A. She knows how I feel about a lot of stuff. And one very GOOD thing....she never once mentioned me telling the kids or OMW. I thought that was huge that she didn't get into the 'I know I did it..BUT you told the kids and OMW'. I just really thought that was a big step forward that she didn't try to rationalize the A away by saying I did something worse.
Will we make it in the end? Don't know. I may be the one to leave the marriage. But I think we got a chance. The talk ended a few minutes later when S16 came home. I was exhausted by then and when I went to bed I gave her a hug and a kiss and she was receptive to both. And she came to bed a while later.
Why didn't you guys tell me I should talk to her a long time ago?
Last edited by Hope4us; 03/15/0911:34 AM.
Hope4us
Me - 49, W 49 S22 & S18 Dday 9/4/07 W claims NC 4/7/08 8/29/09 - Divorce Busted. Lots to work through, but we're going to make it.
Let me throw a pan at you...oh did it miss by this much?? LOL About time my friend. I keep thinking that if I remarry, I will kind of want to do some sort of evaluations of where we are, our goals, are we on track.
So many times we get off track because we just take it for granted that our spouse will be there no matter what. I am really going to watch out for that. I think you guys can maybe keep a gauge on things too without it becoming some huge discussion.
My hats off to you.
kat
Me-53(and learning!) S24, S21, D18, D17 Just keep swimming, Just keep swimming. Dory
Yes. I'm glad you had a good conversation. It does help to clear the air to get some of the garbage out from under the rug. I always imagine that I'm living in one room with an 8 foot ceiling, and as the problems swept under the rug get bigger, the room gets smaller. Until we are lifted about 6 feet in the air by the lumps under the rug, and we are bumping our heads on the ceiling. That's when you think the problems are so big that you just need to move to a new room.
In the future avoid showing your hand, such as quoting TM's back to her. There are no points to be won in the game. It's a matter of learning to work together, not be the only one who is right.
The frying pan just missed Kat. Maybe if it would have connected it would have been better. At least I could have handled the stun from it a little better than I'm handling the stun from Saturday's conversation.
I'm assuming the feelings I'm having are normal. Sunday morning I was doing pretty good and was excited because we finally talked. Later in the afternoon and evening it started hitting me. The emotions and the pain of some of the things she said had went on are pretty darn tough to deal with.
Other things are not that difficult as a lot of it I already knew in my heart/mind was the case.
But some of the revelations are tough to deal with. Her knowing that OM had had numerous A's prior to it going PA the first time is tough to handle. Hearing that she knew where it was headed and chose to go there anyway is tough to handle. Hearing that she was attracted to him very early on and let it go on anyway is tough to handle. Hearing that she knew where it was going and just didn't think about the consequences and chose to do it anyway is tough to handle.
Just dealing with a lot of emotions right now. It's like the most massive trigger I've ever experienced. Almost like D-Day all over again.
I'm assuming it's normal to feel these things. I'm assuming it's all part of the process we have to go through to put it behind us, but right now I'm really struggling.
Hope there's someone out there that has been through this that can tell me it gets better. I think it will, but right now I can't stand the sight of her.
Hope4us
Me - 49, W 49 S22 & S18 Dday 9/4/07 W claims NC 4/7/08 8/29/09 - Divorce Busted. Lots to work through, but we're going to make it.
