Sorry that you find yourself here after being in Piecing.
I myself am piecing, but...I like it here.
Couple of thoughts, first off some things I noticed or have questions about you or what you wrote.
You have been here since 03, that's a hell of a long time. Which leads me to the question, how many books have you read about the various subjects, cause...I think it is a lot. So you have all this knowledge, from other people 'experts' if you will. Have you committed to putting just one or two into practice?
Don't get me wrong, I love to read...but after awhile all those books are either going to say the same thing, or contra-dict each other, and I think for many people LBS it is just safer to read than to put into practice.
I worry about the readers who devour everything they can get their hands on, because it seems like all they do is read...I can read a manual on how to fix my engine, and all the other engines in the world, but, unless I get my hands dirty...it does no practical good.
The 5 languages of love...I am willing to bet you read it. So going with that assumption... your wife equates sex with love, and you equate sex with needing love...yeah I simplified it to the point of over simplifying it.
You should have compromised there. Hind sight and all that. It from what you wrote seemed like sex was stick you used to get your relationship on track, and because there was no sex...she now finds it elsewhere.
No offense...that was stupid.
I understand it...but a compromise I believe would have worked here.
As BND said, 2 sides to the story.
Piecing without boundaries, real boundaries AND the ability to impose consequences...its going to fail. If you cannot walk away because they crossed a line...there is no threat. You're a doormat, and they know it.
In piecing, everything goes out the window. You HAVE to have the R talks, you have to impose your will on the relationship, and you have to be able to tell them to F off.
Right now...I dunno if she is MLC and you should follow the DBing rules, or if she and you are piecing and you should impose your boundaries...but one of the secrets of piecing...
Compromise. You have to know what you can live with and what you cannot, what you can live with is compromise. Maybe before writting this off as MLC, maybe you are still in piecing. Neither is enjoyable.
You have to give to get, and get to give. You have to bite your tongue, and you have to be willing to be burned, but you have to walk away if you realize you are going to keep getting burned.
For the record compromise does not mean you are a doormat. In piecing it just means you are reestablishing your relationship. And your boundaries become her compromises.
Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis
Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans
Listen without defending; Speak without offending - FaithinAK
Sorry that you find yourself here after being in Piecing.
I myself am piecing, but...I like it here.
Couple of thoughts, first off some things I noticed or have questions about you or what you wrote.
You have been here since 03, that's a hell of a long time. Which leads me to the question, how many books have you read about the various subjects, cause...I think it is a lot. So you have all this knowledge, from other people 'experts' if you will. Have you committed to putting just one or two into practice?
Don't get me wrong, I love to read...but after awhile all those books are either going to say the same thing, or contra-dict each other, and I think for many people LBS it is just safer to read than to put into practice.
I worry about the readers who devour everything they can get their hands on, because it seems like all they do is read...I can read a manual on how to fix my engine, and all the other engines in the world, but, unless I get my hands dirty...it does no practical good.
The 5 languages of love...I am willing to bet you read it. So going with that assumption... your wife equates sex with love, and you equate sex with needing love...yeah I simplified it to the point of over simplifying it.
You should have compromised there. Hind sight and all that. It from what you wrote seemed like sex was stick you used to get your relationship on track, and because there was no sex...she now finds it elsewhere.
No offense...that was stupid.
I understand it...but a compromise I believe would have worked here.
As BND said, 2 sides to the story.
Piecing without boundaries, real boundaries AND the ability to impose consequences...its going to fail. If you cannot walk away because they crossed a line...there is no threat. You're a doormat, and they know it.
In piecing, everything goes out the window. You HAVE to have the R talks, you have to impose your will on the relationship, and you have to be able to tell them to F off.
Right now...I dunno if she is MLC and you should follow the DBing rules, or if she and you are piecing and you should impose your boundaries...but one of the secrets of piecing...
Compromise. You have to know what you can live with and what you cannot, what you can live with is compromise. Maybe before writting this off as MLC, maybe you are still in piecing. Neither is enjoyable.
You have to give to get, and get to give. You have to bite your tongue, and you have to be willing to be burned, but you have to walk away if you realize you are going to keep getting burned.
For the record compromise does not mean you are a doormat. In piecing it just means you are reestablishing your relationship. And your boundaries become her compromises.
Me: 46 H:44 Together: 25 years Married: 20 years Separated: 11-30-06 Divorced 12-21-07 OW: EA began 2005 PA began end of 2006 3 children,20, 16, 6 ex asked for forgiveness 01/16/11
Have you committed to putting just one or two into practice?
You should have compromised there. Hind sight and all that. It from what you wrote seemed like sex was stick you used to get your relationship on track, and because there was no sex...she now finds it elsewhere.
Piecing without boundaries, real boundaries AND the ability to impose consequences...its going to fail. If you cannot walk away because they crossed a line...there is no threat. You're a doormat, and they know it.
In piecing, everything goes out the window. You HAVE to have the R talks, you have to impose your will on the relationship, and you have to be able to tell them to F off.
Right now...I dunno if she is MLC and you should follow the DBing rules, or if she and you are piecing and you should impose your boundaries...but one of the secrets of piecing...
For the record compromise does not mean you are a doormat. In piecing it just means you are reestablishing your relationship. And your boundaries become her compromises.
Jack, I think BND hit the nail on the head, when she stated that I need to find the courage to address the bullying and manipulation. Until I do this, there will be no forward movement, and certainly no foundation for intimacy, which she wants. I think this is the boundary issue you've promoted, and noted has been lacking in my efforts.
I have been a doormat. The book I'm reading will talk about this further. I think reading moves me forward, and provides 180's to experiment with. I read and experiment, read and experiment. I see it as an active process, not passive as you suggest.
Your boundary comment is dead on. I agree that I carried around anger, due to my failure to set boundaries around her verbal and emotional abuse. This anger and unresolved feelings about the prior sleeping elsewhere were obstacles to intimacy. I did not intentionally withhold sex as a punishment.
It's not easy to get to a point where one truly is ready to leave the M. Isn't that ultimately the threshold the LBS must reach?
CL
CL 53 W 54 M 20 yrs. 03'-09' Separation + Old Patterns + GAL 10-14' Piecing
"The Master allows things to happen. She shapes events as they come."
Hey CL, I dont think the threshold is the LBS being ready to leave the marriage as it is being able to feel that you will be ok if it ended and moving forward in your life as if the spouse is not coming back. I think there is a difference.
I, too, have issues regarding covert manipulation on my h's part. I struggle with trying to assert myself and my boundaries. I am realizing that no one should be allowed to let you feel powerless and that my part in this journey is to be able to gain the strength to not allow that to happen.
Keep moving forward in your life. Its great that you are so involved with dancing. Focus on that. I think as you feel more confident with yourself, you will be able to deal with your issues with your w in a whole new way.
Beginner, I think you and I are kindred members in this community struggling with similar issues. It's only been recently that I've been able to think in terms that I could be happy and fine without my W.
I do think I'm slowly building confidence and courage. I need to work on developing the skills to set limits with my W and insist on respectful communication. When I have some ideas for 180's, I will experiment when the opportunity arises (and an opportunity will present itself).
I working thru The Gaslight Effect, by Robin Stern.
CL
CL 53 W 54 M 20 yrs. 03'-09' Separation + Old Patterns + GAL 10-14' Piecing
"The Master allows things to happen. She shapes events as they come."
I did not intentionally withhold sex as a punishment.
Hard to read intent, and good intentions are the golden bricks that pave the path to hell.
Doesn't matter what you intended, how did she perceive it? Not a fair question unless she told you. Perception forms reality, meaning what I perceive forms the basis of my reality.
Sex is important to her. So you need to get over those issues you have if you want to be married to her, you know in the traditional marriage sort of way.
Quote:
It's not easy to get to a point where one truly is ready to leave the M.
No sh it? : ) Preaching to the choir brother man.
Quote:
Isn't that ultimately the threshold the LBS must reach?
I believe it is one of the possible paths if the MLC is unrepentant.
Quote:
The book I'm reading will talk about this further.
...goodie...
The read and experiment, read and experiment thing... I hope you are giving enough time to see the effects of your experiments, instead of giving up too quickly and moving to the next chapter...IF you do that don't you think it makes you look...fickle, uncommitted?
You guys dance, and haven't danced together since your outburst...What would happen if you went up and danced with her and no wasn't an option?
Reading books about being assertive...man just do it.
Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis
Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans
Listen without defending; Speak without offending - FaithinAK
Beginner and Jack3B, I had a good time at the dance venue. I got to dance with new ladies, and reconnect with others who invited me to join them at their venue on Sunday night. A guy with some basic dance skills is considered valuable.
I think I need to stay the course, and not pursue my W, as has been suggested. I keep thinking of the distinction between wise and foolish compassion. My W makes it clear she wants space, she is planning on moving on with her life, she is planning on finding a FT job to support herself, she sleeps elsewhere with no transparency as to where she is. I don't see the wisdom in pursuing her. She needs to experience the consequences of her words, judgment, and decisions.
I need to work on building confidence and buildling a social life that is mine. I also am trying to teach myself how to write personal essays. I'm trying to spend my time as DB suggests, as I would if I didn't have marital problems to think about.
I've read the first two chapters in The Gaslight Effect. It frames the verbal disrespect and anger I tolerate from my W as emotional abuse. It identifies the gaslighter as someone is strongly motivated to be right and will use anger to manipulate you to conform to their viewpoint. Nice guys like me are easily manipulated by these people, because we are sensitive, good listeners, want to think well of others, are conflict avoidant, want to keep peace, and want to preserve the M. These are great qualities for being in a R with a healthier person.
The first step is to create a response to their anger that disengages you from their tantrum. You basically unilaterally call a timeout, and leave the conversation, room, or house.
This would be a 180 for me. My history, as has been described is to suck it up, and let the storm pass. I then have to live with the emotional repercussions, which linger, and inhibit connection. I'll have to rehearse some sentences, that fit for me.
CL
CL 53 W 54 M 20 yrs. 03'-09' Separation + Old Patterns + GAL 10-14' Piecing
"The Master allows things to happen. She shapes events as they come."
The first step is to create a response to their anger that disengages you from their tantrum. You basically unilaterally call a timeout, and leave the conversation, room, or house.
This would be a 180 for me. My history, as has been described is to suck it up, and let the storm pass. I then have to live with the emotional repercussions, which linger, and inhibit connection. I'll have to rehearse some sentences, that fit for me.
I think this would be a HUGE 180 for you.
Please don't take this wrong...BUT.....have you always been this way? Having to find a book in order to find an answer?
What about your gut? What does your gut tell you to do?
There can be no testimony without a test. I am praying to go through this test and come out the other end with a new and better marriage then before.
