WAW - Very confused and devestated - pt 4

[confusedinpa]

The husband of the divorce couple is more pushy with respect to just moving on. The wife is more supportive of can't believe I can still do it, but make sure I'm taking care of myself. I prefer to talk to the wife, but it's hit or miss on who picks up the phone. When I go over, I do talk to both of them and I see the wife roll her eyes when he starts pushing moving on.

I have been trying to enjoy life. In fact that's one of the things that annoyed my wife last Sat morning. When she was going through her pity party and pushing me to work on the custody agreement, I told her that right now I'm trying to figure out what I want.

I know during my depression I missed a lot. I'm not going to anymore. Even with this stuff going on, I'm going to enjoy my life. I told her that she is welcome to join me if she wants, but I am planning on enjoying it with my kids (i.e. going to visit friends, go to the park, mini-vacations, etc.)

This clearly bothered her as she was wallowing in her negative emotions. I did tell her I love her and want this marriage to work, not like it was before because that's not what I want either. But to have one that we both want and enjoy.

I did get down with what she said on Sunday nite and then it got worse when I talked to the married couple. I got more upbeat as my wife went to dinner before the counseling session (ironically we went to the bar/resturant where we met). I could see she wasn't 100% "there" with me - she would look off into space occassionally - but I kept up the eye contact and tried to keep her talking through out dinner. I enjoyed being there with her. I think she approached it as dinner with a friend.

Oh well, whatever.

I will keep doing what I'm doing with my 180 and getting a life.

[confusedinpa]

Last nite on the way to counseling the buy me a rose song came up on her ipod. She told me that it came on earlier in the day and it made her cry. She had written the lyrics in a 1/2 anniversary card that she gave me last year to tell me what she wanted. I didn't get it then. I do now.

On the way back from counseling, we had talked about the flowers things - 6 times in the last 8 weeks. She said it just seemed like much. I told her I was thinking about her and the last time when I did, I had also thought about the Kenny Roger's Buy me a Rose song, so I did.

She then said that the song wasn't meant to be taken literally. I told her I understood that but I had still wanted to buy her a rose. I then joked and went through some more of the lyrics (open the door for her, call her from work). She joked back, yeah, what would it hurt (more lines from the song). She then said that she was going to tell our counselor next time that I'm reciting lyrics of songs to her. It seemed like good general humor back and forth.

Anyway, I knew she had a really busy day today so I just sent her an email:

"Thought I would “call” you from work – figured what would it hurt ; )

Hope your day is winding down. I know you’re doing a lot of running back and forth today."

It's already sent, but do you think that it would be too much "pursuing"? I'm nervous now that I sent it because everytime I do these types of things, she would be mad/frustrated.

Guess I'll have to get my verbal ju-jitsu ready for tonite.

Oh well, whatever

[stillloveshim]

Yes, stop pursuing. Stop all pursing, stop all contact that doesn't involve a very important REAL reason to contact her. Look at it this way. You contact her, she knows you are thinking about her and most likely the situation. Also,you aren't doing anything and now she knows.
STOP IT.
But now that it's done, it's done. It was actually very nice and thoughtful. You and I both know that.
No more relationship talk.
No more future talk.
Save it for MC.
Go get your life. You deserve it Confused.

[spellfire]

I have been trying to tell you all along, the best thing for you is to truly GAL and along with it a PMA.

That doesn't mean just "doing stuff" on your own. It means coming to the realization that you need to look to yourself to become more than you currently are in order to turn things around. This does not mean changing what you are doing, it means changing who you are.

It means learning to be more masculine. It means learning to self-regulate your emotions, rather than depending on someone else to regulate them for you. Becoming decisive, confident, strong, self-aware...all these things are achievable. It means establishing boundaries for the things you wont tolerate.

In all your threads, I have looked for you to move towards these things. So far you have excused away much advice by saying you are venting here. That is fine, but at what point does the need to stop venting end, and the confident, new CIPA emerge?

Sorry if this reads harsh. I do care, but I gotta get through to you somehow.

SF

[confusedinpa]

Spellfire,

I never take what you say as harsh. I take it as feedback that can only come from someone who cares can actually give. I do strongly appreciate your insight and 2x4's.

Your masculine comment really is an ironic one. Prior to this, all my friends and family, with my wife included, would have always said that I was a "tough guy". Don't stand in my way if I want something because it's going to happen. Unfortunately, I would make it happen regardless of other people's feelings/emotions. That's why the Nice Guy book is so freaky for me now.

I am generally upbeat and positive, particularly as I've been using my new mantra of whatever. I had been managing my sad/hurt emotions around her so I don't feel them around her. The only backslide I had was during the counseling session for a few minutes when I was talking about my stuff. I was able to get it back together after a bit.

I know the day is coming where I will have to let the tough guy out again. With my wife pushing me to come to the table for the custody agreement and the separation, the boundaries I have set had been that I will not have the kids be bouncing back and forth between houses. Not until the divorce is final, and that's another 96 weeks. I already pushed her button when I told that the only way I can afford the house is if I keep custody and she pays child support. She had gotten really upset about that.

I'm planning on being more of the tough guy when it comes down to planning the "fun things" to do during the weekend. That was something that we batted around last weekend when she wanted me to focus on moving foward with the custody and separation, rather than trying to enjoy life. I told her that I'm taking the kids to do these things with or without her. I want her to come, but don't need to her to come. Either way, I will enjoy life.

The part I'm struggling with, and perhaps this goes back to letting out the tough guy, is pushing back without making it be a full scale argument. My tough guy approach had always been you push me an inch and I'll hit you with a bat to move you a foot. Don't think that's ideal in my situation with my wife, but need to create the balance.

I'm also trying to balance the tough guy approach with respecting my wife's boundaries (i.e. sexual touches) and creating an enviornment where she feels safe (stray cat theory).

The last several days had been so filled with ups and downs:

Down - Tues nite she surprises me by moving into the spare bedroom

Up - Thurs nite we're intimate again

Down - Thurs nite - during intimacy, she hits me with the "hates my ffing pnis you ahole" comment

Up - Fri nite she kisses me on the lips a couple of times when she gets home

Down - Sat/Sun says she can't see the relationship ever working,

Up - Mon we have a fun time during dinner before marriage counseling

Down - Mon during marriage counseling reiterates to counselor that she only feels negative for me and can't get let go so the relationship can't work

Neutral - Mon on the way back from marriage counseling tells me she thinks that I'm only changing only because I'm following a script from a book

Up - Tues morning she gives me a kiss on the lips before she leaves work

With the ups/downs, I try detach my emotions from her, but sometimes it's hard not to feel something - particularly her pnis comment...

I'm glad to see you back on my thread. I do appreciate your 2x4 smack.

[DrHemlock]

Confused, it sounds like you've been going to counseling for a long time. Is it what MWD calls "solution-based" counseling or is it one these ones (like I have) where you rehash the past? She's pretty critical of that model, and I think I have to make a MC change because, hey -- I already know what I did wrong, okay? I've heard it enough to have it committed to memory -- I'd have it tattoo'd on my backside but it would be too hard to read. So let me know when the leather-bound edition is available and I'll put it on the bookshelf.

[MrBond]

You know you could save alot of money if you really paid attention to what all of us had said here. But you keep repeating the same mistakes.

Stop with all the relationship talks once and for all. Who would want to stay in a marriage when only negatives get brought up?

Here's what you need to do. When your W brings up the thought that she doesn't/can't believe the changes are real, blah blah blah, then just shrug your shoulders and say "that's up to you. I know their real." and then just walk off. You don't have to keep justifying it to her.

Second, when she brings up the thought that you should have known to do this and that. Just tell her you're not a mind reader any more than she is. If something's bothering her, tell you. She'll bring up how you never did so in the past, then stop her right there. Tell her that was the past and this is now. All she has to do is tell you and you understand much more now. Then stop. You don't have to justify anymore than that.

I had to give my W the mindreading talk and after that, she stopped griping about stuff. She knows she has to tell me when something is bothering her and I am always available to her.

You don't have to beat her over the head with it.

Again, all these issues are her. Stop appeasing her and following her around like a dog looking for her to throw you a bone. There's your 2x4. Stop all physical stuff on your part, even hugs, because in all you posts you keep initiating and you're driving her away. Think of yourself as like a James Bond character where women come to you rather than the other way around. Build up your confidence.

She's acting conflicted right now, but I can see she's rapidly making her mind towards the negative because you just won't stop. Even watching the Fireproof video, if she came off saying it was cruel for you two to watch it, kindly remind her that she wanted to see it too and that you are not the cause of her anger and frustration. The past is.

She is in total midlife crisis mode with her wild mood swings and irritability. You just have to ride them out as best you can.

With the verbal jiu-jitsu, you have to deflect her blaming you and reflect the issues back on her. When she keeps saying "I can't believe" or "You should have..." Deflect those comments with "I understand you can't believe...but I believe it" or "I should have before and that was before. I know better now." Then walk away. The key is to stop before she starts going off on the same rant she's been spewing for the past 9 weeks.

Oh and BTW, 9 weeks is a drop in the bucket. People have been on here for 5 years still going through this and I just hit a year. How do we get through it? Patience and prayer. Lots and lots of prayer. Sometimes jokingly I'd pray that my W wasn't going to be anything stupid today, but those light moments are what keeps you going day after day.

Oh and in terms of custody of your kids, I would split them 50/50. YOU can be just as caring a parent as she is and even more so because of what you've learned through all this. She is the one who is the unfit parent right now.

I still go for my original suggestion that you should separate households. You would have to anyway. Give her some real space and split the kids 50/50 between you. Show her you've got balls and that you are every bit the man you're claiming to be.

She'll complain saying that you're so cruel, etc. But hey, she started this. It's time to start doing things on your terms not hers.

Here's a link to a MLC article I found to be interesting.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/index.php?term=mid-life&print=1
I even sent this to my W even though they suggest not to, but she didn't complain about it, so it usually means she's read it and is fine with it. Your W is not at that stage. She still believes you and everyone else is the cause of her problems and not her. It's time you not let her MLC selfishness run your life. Live how you want to live your life. That's how it was before you got married. You never had to answer to anyone. Show her that man again. Then she'll have no choice but to look within. And that's what you want her to do.

I told my W that instead of constantly complaining about what she doesn't want, try figuring out what it is you do want. Your W will say she wants her freedom and to be out of the marriage. Stop her and ask her again what do you want and ask her to be specific. Does she want to go back to school, get a new job, new boyfriend, etc. I even recommended to my W that she get a journal and write down her thoughts and goals. Again, have her look within.

[AnotherNightmare]

CIPA,

Sorry I have been away from the boards a bit due GAL and work.

The last several days had been so filled with ups and downs:

Down - Tues nite she surprises me by moving into the spare bedroom

Up - Thurs nite we're intimate again

Down - Thurs nite - during intimacy, she hits me with the "hates my ffing pnis you ahole" comment

Up - Fri nite she kisses me on the lips a couple of times when she gets home

Down - Sat/Sun says she can't see the relationship ever working,

Up - Mon we have a fun time during dinner before marriage counseling

Down - Mon during marriage counseling reiterates to counselor that she only feels negative for me and can't get let go so the relationship can't work

Neutral - Mon on the way back from marriage counseling tells me she thinks that I'm only changing only because I'm following a script from a book

Up - Tues morning she gives me a kiss on the lips before she leaves work

Do you realize that your mood solely depends on what she does? You are not detached, you are still attached to her like two pieces of wood held together with Locktite.

I am generally upbeat and positive, particularly as I've been using my new mantra of whatever.

No, you are not. You may try to act that way, but women are much smarter than that. As long as you keep pursuing her, she knows all that is going through your head is this whole situation. She knows you are anxious, insecure, blame yourself (or her) for what went wrong. Who wants to live with a guy like that? (Sorry for my bluntness).

I agree with everybody else here. Save the time and money for counseling unless you really want to listen. But I wonder what a counselor could possibly say that nobody has not said before. Start listening to the people here who support you and start listening to your wife. If you listen to her as well as to your supporters (and I know a lot of men including myself have that problem), I am not surprised you are making no progress. Please, for your own sake, listen to your wife, your counselor, your DB coach and everybody else posting on this thread.

AN

[spellfire]

Please read what stuck wrote two times, it's good advice. Try to take it to heart.

Now a little visualization exercise. Think of a triangle:

* On the bottom left point is the nice guy. The nice guy depends on others for their emotional well-being. He is hurt by anything bad said about him. He is needy, clingy, emotionally enmeshed with his partner, apologizes constantly, is indecisive and constantly looking to others to make decisions, big and small. This guy lets others call the shots, and then feels victimized. He blames others for this, since it couldn't possibly be his fault, right?

* On the bottom right is the macho man. This guy despises the wuss, and (being completely out of touch) attempts to compensate by being a hard ass. He sees himself as being a realist, but in fact he is just a stubborn jerk. When he takes a hit, he hits back. His defenses are up, he lets nobody in (not even his closest loved ones) because he doesn't want the world to see that deep down he is actually scared and lacks self esteem.

* At the top of the triangle is the integrated man. This guy is brimming with confidence and self esteem and therefore is able to let people in without fear that they will see something they don't like. When attacked, the assault just bounces off, not because his defenses are up, but because he is unaffected and uninfluenced by the negativity of others. People don't see the integrated man as a "tough guy" or stubborn, because he feels no need to defend himself, or hit back. He is compassionate of others, because he makes sure his own emotional needs are well met. He is no push over either. He sets boundaries, and enforces them via his actions. Men in this state are not easily affected by the emotions of those around him. They are however, fully aware of their feelings and allow themselves to feel and express what they feel. Integrated men know what they want, and are decisive by nature. They are able to accept criticism with an open mind and ear, since they feel no need to defend themself for being themself.

The point of this exercise is to show that it's not "Nice Guy vs. Tough Guy". Both of those states are two sides of the same coin, IF your self esteem is low. Your goal is to become a BETTER MAN. Draw a bar beside the triangle. This bar represents self-esteem/self-awareness/PMA. How would you rate yourself on a scale of 1-10 right now?

Tip: Gradually get rid of all the books and videos and everything she thinks you are using to try to save the M (just stash em somewhere and read them only when she's not around). Get some books about other hobbies and dig into those instead when she is around. Meanwhile, keep GAL and working on your PMA, and "whatever" attitude. She thinks the changes are "right from the playbook", so it is time to get rid of the perceived playbooks and show her the changes are real.

[MrBond]

Great post Spellfire! I'll have to incorporate that into my own sitch.